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[Music]

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and good afternoon from Philadelphia

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Frank here with a Wednesday snowy

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edition of UFO News Network Sunday with

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me is chant Hannah chant how're you

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doing today I'm doing really well how

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are you Frank we're doing all right

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we're doing all right and we do normally

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we bring our guests right in today we

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got a great guest peter robbins got a

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jam-packed agenda with him but once in a

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while it does come up where there's some

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in-house business that we got to address

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so we'll get that out of the way it's

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important enough I think that well we'll

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get it done at the top of the show and

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obviously I'm curious about Peters

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feedback too because you tell you

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doesn't mind discussing this sort of

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thing

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so today's Peters lucky day gets the

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weight a little bit usually we bring on

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guests right on no questions asked but a

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little bit of an exception okay this

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goes back a little over three weeks when

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we had dr. Diana pisanka

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on our show author of American cosmic we

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discussed that length during that show

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the contents of the book and obviously a

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big part of the book is her involvement

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with an individual whom she did not

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reveal the true name of the true

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identity she used a pseudonym Tyler from

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Fight Club and we don't talk about Fight

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Club and so on and so forth

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now a lot of clues as to Tyler's actual

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identity are included in the book in

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fact those clues are so obvious that in

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speaking to dr. pessoa directly one of

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the questions that I asked her was about

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this inevitability happening and is

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inevitable and I phrased the question a

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lot more diplomatically but basically

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what I was thinking at the time I don't

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think it would have changed her answer

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if I'd asked a little bit more bluntly

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or if I asked that as diplomatically I

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did but when you put as many identifiers

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as she did about this individuals actual

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identity this was gonna get solved like

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you know with the with the least amount

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of effort it was pretty obvious this was

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gonna get solvent and of course I asked

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her that she did say yeah they

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understand there

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gonna get identified okay so that's out

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of the way I don't think anything of it

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because quite frankly I didn't get into

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all this to ID people who don't want to

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be identified although in this case I'm

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not so sure that's not entirely the case

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considering the pretty clear dead

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giveaway clues as to this individuals

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identity but be that as it may so I

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figured somebody's gonna figure it out

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it's gonna be figured out quick enough

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somebody else is gonna do it this past

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Sunday I got an email from an individual

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who yeah I like this guy's work this

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this came to me yeah sort of again via

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email this isn't somebody who patrols

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around social media and so on and so

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forth looking for this kind of thing

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this guy knows what he's talking about

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he sent me the email and that Timothy

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Taylor this is the guy this is Tyler

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from American cosmic so I follow up on

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that and take a look around and yeah

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obviously some people have already

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pretty well determined that this is the

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guy used the the the clues that were

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readily available by the people involved

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made that pretty clear involvement in

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entrepreneurialism different businesses

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the number Patten's the work on the

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space shuttle Challenger it was pretty

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easy to solve and I'm seeing that and

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I'm also yeah I'm seeing that this is

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out there but it's out there

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spread on different internet forums by

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people who don't have their names

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attached to it and so on and so forth

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but it's floating around and also

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simultaneously to this that most people

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are getting this right but of course

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obviously some people still get it wrong

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another individual by the name of Travis

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Taylor who is a scientist also something

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of a TV personality he is being

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misidentified as a sailor individual so

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as things played out over the course of

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the day it just it was just time to put

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it into this clear things up Timothy

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Taylor is Tyler and it's not just

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internet scuttlebutt the connections are

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pretty clear a paper written by dr. Paz

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oka and let me change my projection so I

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can read this published openly

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available the spectrum of human techno

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hybridity the total recall effect

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obviously she writes a little bit and

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mentions Timothy Taylor vice-chairman

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former chairman of several biomedical

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companies she's talking about him in

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this particular paper that is available

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online at academia dot-com and then

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there is in of course there is also a

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episode in the book in the American

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cosmic book where she discusses going to

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the Vatican for some additional research

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and of course this is readily available

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as well a Vatican PDF has put out for

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the annual report of the Vatican

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Observatory and in that PDF here it is

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you're working visits to the Vatican

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Observatory headquarters and of course

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dr. Basilica is named as well as Timothy

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Caylor from NASA and obviously some

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comment from dr. Basilica have not

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received word back but you know nobody's

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saying that this isn't the guy this is

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the guy the clues were out there and

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again I want to restate I didn't go

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looking for this it kind of came my way

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and I could see it was a bit of a mess

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again I spoke with dr. Basilica directly

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about the inevitability of this

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happening and my feeling is it's just

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time to clear this up it's over it's

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done with we'll move forward I will say

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this about Timothy Taylor obviously I I

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don't know this guy at all but based on

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what I know of the American cosmic book

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and also what I know from his book

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launch fever from some time back he is a

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guy that the field could use more openly

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there's no doubt about that in my mind

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reading and from what I know about him

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he is very big on self-actualization

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which is in my opinion a very important

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and very undervalued underrepresented

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positive about being involved in this

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field I would like to hear more from him

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more openly about that I think it's

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important

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and that is basically it it's out there

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now nobody should question about it my

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names on it there's of no not going by

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any kind of online pseudonym or anything

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like that no one's denying that it's him

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it's out there it's done and I don't

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relish it this isn't a victory lap I'm

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not claiming this is a giant coup and

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patting myself on the back over it it's

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done it's over and my little speech is

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over my little presentation is over and

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now it's time to bring in our guest

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peter robbins peter today was your lucky

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day I I know that you don't even know

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the meaning of the word controversy or

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anything like that

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getting so a little bit of heat from

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certain circles on this that I shouldn't

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have done this but I did go ahead do it

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so I chant why don't you formally

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introduce Peter Robbins and tell the

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folks at home all about him if they

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don't not like as if they don't know

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already yeah I don't think Peter Robbins

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is a stranger to controversy but we have

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a very special guest on the show today

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Peter Robbins he's an investigative

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writer who has specialized in the

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subject for more than 35 years he's a

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regular guest on American British radio

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shows and has appeared as a guest on and

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been consultant to numerous television

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shows and documentaries peter has

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lectured extensively both here and

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abroad for local and regional UFO groups

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and libraries and had been used at have

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included the Cambridge Hospital in

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Boston Cornell University the Juilliard

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School and School of Visual Arts in New

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York City the Royal College of Science

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and Technology London the universities

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of Cardiff Leeds Hallam Glasgow the

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summer Hill School in centric UK the

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annual conference of the UFO

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organisation in Japan Tokyo the and in

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Tokyo the sixth world UFO forum in

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Brazil and the exobiology international

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meeting in Milan Italy he's given

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presentations in Rome Athens Paris

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Bordeaux Toulouse and nice France and

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Smith sorry and spoken at the Greater

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New England UFO conference the Pine Bush

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New York UFO conference but Hopkins

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intruders foundation conferences and

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seminars then McMinnville Oregon UFO

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Festival conference the

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crash retrieval UFO conference the

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experiencers speak conference and the

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International UFO conference in Phoenix

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in 2012 he was made a member of the

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French Academy I cannot say that Peter

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I'm sorry I'm gonna butcher it des UFO

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Lachie and in 2013 invited to give

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testimony at the citizens hearings on

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disclosure at the National Press Club in

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Washington DC Robins was a member of the

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Advisory Board of the late bud Hopkins

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intruders Foundation was editor-in-chief

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of the ground-breaking UFO city.com

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event coordinator for the sci-fi

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channels alien abduction phenomenon

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symposium promoting the miniseries

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miniseries taken advisor to the

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McMinnville Oregon UFO Festival and his

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former consultant to the mayor's office

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of the city of Roswell New Mexico he's

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proud to have been a co-founder of

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Travis Walton sky fire UFO summit and

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along with his friend and colleague Dean

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merchant a co-founder the of the Exeter

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UFO Festival and conference it's my

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pleasure to introduce our conference

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emcee and speaker Peter Robbins you have

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such a long resume and rightfully so how

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are you doing today

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I'm doing fine tense how are you doing

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I'm doing wonderfully thank you for

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being on our show it's such an honor to

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have you here with us glad to be so

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Peter we had a pretty good agenda and

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we're still gonna get to everything but

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since there is a little bit of what's

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going on today we're we're we're all

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that today with all this you did mention

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that you have no problems talking about

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once you give us a thumbnail position on

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where you're at with where we're at

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today on finding out more about the UFO

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topic I'm not can you just hold in a

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little bit more yeah yeah we're seeing

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this effort perhaps directed from

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sources that are going to be or looking

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to remain anonymous but taking

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instruction some agents are sort of out

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in the field writing books

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creating company's intellectual private

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movies TV shows I see what you're saying

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about 40 years ago a little longer than

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that I I became obsessed with this

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subject not even overnight but in a

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matter of a minute it was based on my

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late sister Helens telling me very clear

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memories that she had of the childhood

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abduction and with that his background

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over the years that I have been involved

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in the field every few years I become

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aware like colleagues and good and

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serious students of the subject of major

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00:13:05,180 --> 00:13:00,360
conspiratorial thinking what seems to be

275
00:13:07,790 --> 00:13:05,190
the hidden hand of larger forces may be

276
00:13:10,970 --> 00:13:07,800
more contemporaneously we would call

277
00:13:15,290 --> 00:13:10,980
them the deep state the secret

278
00:13:18,889 --> 00:13:15,300
government nefarious movers of the chess

279
00:13:20,870 --> 00:13:18,899
pieces those controllers of the way we

280
00:13:23,000 --> 00:13:20,880
perceive the world and move through it

281
00:13:24,889 --> 00:13:23,010
and who own a good part of it I I don't

282
00:13:29,750 --> 00:13:24,899
think things have really changed that

283
00:13:33,650 --> 00:13:29,760
much however what you're talking about

284
00:13:36,579 --> 00:13:33,660
is sort of the newest wave of a number

285
00:13:40,790 --> 00:13:36,589
of people fairly high-profile seemingly

286
00:13:45,860 --> 00:13:40,800
well-intentioned who have created a

287
00:13:48,710 --> 00:13:45,870
company to stated purpose help educate

288
00:13:52,370 --> 00:13:48,720
folks help bring disclosure at a more

289
00:13:55,610 --> 00:13:52,380
lively rate and at the same time to

290
00:14:00,380 --> 00:13:55,620
create entertainments around the subject

291
00:14:04,970 --> 00:14:00,390
of UFOs and cover-up and as a company to

292
00:14:08,689 --> 00:14:04,980
make money for people I stand kind of at

293
00:14:14,780 --> 00:14:08,699
the outside rim of this and observe it I

294
00:14:17,120 --> 00:14:14,790
I guess in in wonderful phrase of the

295
00:14:18,130 --> 00:14:17,130
great Stanton T Friedman this is

296
00:14:22,090 --> 00:14:18,140
something that is still

297
00:14:24,340 --> 00:14:22,100
my gray box I don't really know fully

298
00:14:28,000 --> 00:14:24,350
what to make of it yet whether or not

299
00:14:32,079 --> 00:14:28,010
this is all going to produce a very

300
00:14:38,160 --> 00:14:32,089
positive result or simply control or

301
00:14:40,870 --> 00:14:38,170
shift our collective thinking deflected

302
00:14:42,610 --> 00:14:40,880
move it to an area where we're looking

303
00:14:46,079 --> 00:14:42,620
kind of slightly in the wrong direction

304
00:14:52,300 --> 00:14:46,089
I keep in my mind one of the great

305
00:14:54,990 --> 00:14:52,310
iconic moments in control of people's

306
00:14:59,460 --> 00:14:55,000
thinking around this subject and where

307
00:15:02,290 --> 00:14:59,470
serious research truly interfaced with

308
00:15:05,530 --> 00:15:02,300
entertainment was in the great

309
00:15:09,190 --> 00:15:05,540
television show primarily of the 1990s

310
00:15:11,800 --> 00:15:09,200
the x-files which many of us millions of

311
00:15:15,040 --> 00:15:11,810
us were big fans of for me especially so

312
00:15:16,840 --> 00:15:15,050
the first seven of its 10 years when I

313
00:15:18,490 --> 00:15:16,850
think people just started to make too

314
00:15:20,620 --> 00:15:18,500
much money and got less interested and

315
00:15:22,689 --> 00:15:20,630
it was not quite what it had been in

316
00:15:24,819 --> 00:15:22,699
terms of Chris Carter's terrific

317
00:15:26,530 --> 00:15:24,829
research the reason I bring it up is in

318
00:15:29,620 --> 00:15:26,540
the very first episode we're not only

319
00:15:33,880 --> 00:15:29,630
introduced to our protagonists and it's

320
00:15:36,880 --> 00:15:33,890
a great pilot as pilots go if you have

321
00:15:39,280 --> 00:15:36,890
not seen it in many years you can find

322
00:15:40,960 --> 00:15:39,290
it easily enough and watch it it gives

323
00:15:42,490 --> 00:15:40,970
us all we need to know about everything

324
00:15:44,980 --> 00:15:42,500
that's going to happen over the next

325
00:15:47,790 --> 00:15:44,990
year's on a certain level the iconic

326
00:15:52,780 --> 00:15:47,800
poster that is on agent Mulder's

327
00:15:58,139 --> 00:15:52,790
basement office wall I want to believe I

328
00:16:02,800 --> 00:15:58,149
think that phrase informs so much of

329
00:16:04,960 --> 00:16:02,810
ufology of the seriousness and the focus

330
00:16:06,730 --> 00:16:04,970
of the subject of the sideshow that it

331
00:16:10,840 --> 00:16:06,740
is also generated over the years and

332
00:16:13,120 --> 00:16:10,850
decades we all want to believe it's what

333
00:16:14,620 --> 00:16:13,130
we want to believe that varies many of

334
00:16:16,329 --> 00:16:14,630
us simply want to believe we're not

335
00:16:17,829 --> 00:16:16,339
alone in the universe guess what you

336
00:16:21,069 --> 00:16:17,839
don't even have to believe anymore it's

337
00:16:23,980 --> 00:16:21,079
true many people want to believe that we

338
00:16:28,389 --> 00:16:23,990
are because it conflicts with set Dogma

339
00:16:31,269 --> 00:16:28,399
and threatens maybe theological beliefs

340
00:16:31,990 --> 00:16:31,279
that they have or you know stories that

341
00:16:34,690 --> 00:16:32,000
they live by

342
00:16:37,210 --> 00:16:34,700
I want to preserve many people want to

343
00:16:38,590 --> 00:16:37,220
believe that they're all good many

344
00:16:41,890 --> 00:16:38,600
people want to believe that they're all

345
00:16:45,430 --> 00:16:41,900
bad that there's only one group that

346
00:16:47,710 --> 00:16:45,440
there's more than one group III know I'm

347
00:16:50,080 --> 00:16:47,720
kind of talking in a circle here but

348
00:16:54,120 --> 00:16:50,090
this is kind of what we're talking about

349
00:16:56,800 --> 00:16:54,130
is sort of the latest manifestation of

350
00:16:59,560 --> 00:16:56,810
where the money and the attention is at

351
00:17:02,080 --> 00:16:59,570
the moment and it's still very much a

352
00:17:03,880 --> 00:17:02,090
ball in play much as I dislike using

353
00:17:06,610 --> 00:17:03,890
sports analogy sometimes they're the

354
00:17:08,500 --> 00:17:06,620
only way to go and I will continue to

355
00:17:12,179 --> 00:17:08,510
watch with interest what happens in this

356
00:17:15,610 --> 00:17:12,189
area and I'm as somebody that tends to

357
00:17:17,230 --> 00:17:15,620
grasp both sides of an argument and even

358
00:17:21,449 --> 00:17:17,240
appreciate the side of the argument that

359
00:17:24,630 --> 00:17:21,459
I stand against or do not support I

360
00:17:29,640 --> 00:17:24,640
can't say I'm going to be surprised

361
00:17:32,470 --> 00:17:29,650
however this works out so for me it's um

362
00:17:35,470 --> 00:17:32,480
it's something that is ongoing and then

363
00:17:37,350 --> 00:17:35,480
I have not taken a definitive side on to

364
00:17:40,840 --> 00:17:37,360
put it mildly

365
00:17:42,940 --> 00:17:40,850
okay well more recently now you have

366
00:17:47,110 --> 00:17:42,950
sort of gone back to the beginning back

367
00:17:49,420 --> 00:17:47,120
to the very early days in the years

368
00:17:52,990 --> 00:17:49,430
immediately following World War two

369
00:17:57,070 --> 00:17:53,000
during the Truman years unquestionably

370
00:18:02,560 --> 00:17:57,080
the best-documented era as far as

371
00:18:04,980 --> 00:18:02,570
presidents and very high-level members

372
00:18:07,660 --> 00:18:04,990
of the US government being actively

373
00:18:10,180 --> 00:18:07,670
directly interested in this subject

374
00:18:12,070 --> 00:18:10,190
you've gone back and are taking a much

375
00:18:13,630 --> 00:18:12,080
closer look at the life of the very

376
00:18:16,660 --> 00:18:13,640
first Secretary of Defense James

377
00:18:18,520 --> 00:18:16,670
Forrestal and just to give folks an idea

378
00:18:20,380 --> 00:18:18,530
if they don't know who he is or maybe

379
00:18:23,050 --> 00:18:20,390
they're just familiar with his tragic

380
00:18:25,480 --> 00:18:23,060
and just to put it really simply

381
00:18:27,580 --> 00:18:25,490
basically James Forrestal was the guy

382
00:18:28,380 --> 00:18:27,590
who rebuilt the Pacific Fleet after

383
00:18:31,030 --> 00:18:28,390
Pearl Harbor

384
00:18:33,070 --> 00:18:31,040
once that theater in World War Two but

385
00:18:35,710 --> 00:18:33,080
you know a lot more about him than I do

386
00:18:36,790 --> 00:18:35,720
so tell the folks what you think about

387
00:18:41,890 --> 00:18:36,800
James Forrestal

388
00:18:44,980 --> 00:18:41,900
I personally first came into an

389
00:18:45,890 --> 00:18:44,990
awareness of this great American in

390
00:18:48,830 --> 00:18:45,900
nineteen

391
00:18:52,070 --> 00:18:48,840
87 and I think a two-minute backstory is

392
00:18:54,260 --> 00:18:52,080
important here I

393
00:18:57,860 --> 00:18:54,270
I heard Stanton Friedman give a lecture

394
00:19:00,110 --> 00:18:57,870
at the MUFON conference of 1987 it was

395
00:19:01,910 --> 00:19:00,120
an important conference it marked the

396
00:19:04,220 --> 00:19:01,920
40th anniversary of Roswell on the

397
00:19:07,520 --> 00:19:04,230
Kenneth Arnold sightings it was held at

398
00:19:10,700 --> 00:19:07,530
American University in Washington DC so

399
00:19:14,290 --> 00:19:10,710
it had a bit of extra gravitas a number

400
00:19:19,370 --> 00:19:14,300
of very fine presenters but Stan's paper

401
00:19:21,350 --> 00:19:19,380
was something that truly affected me to

402
00:19:25,790 --> 00:19:21,360
the point where after hearing it I

403
00:19:27,710 --> 00:19:25,800
thought this level of investigation is

404
00:19:31,280 --> 00:19:27,720
extraordinary it was a paper called The

405
00:19:34,700 --> 00:19:31,290
Secret Life of Donald K Menzel who was

406
00:19:36,320 --> 00:19:34,710
on the surface a distinguished academic

407
00:19:39,080 --> 00:19:36,330
and head of the Astronomy Department at

408
00:19:41,420 --> 00:19:39,090
Harvard but who in fact was living a

409
00:19:45,080 --> 00:19:41,430
secret life as an asset to the national

410
00:19:47,210 --> 00:19:45,090
security community and Stan had gotten

411
00:19:49,550 --> 00:19:47,220
access not onto his papers at Harvard

412
00:19:51,770 --> 00:19:49,560
his private papers through the

413
00:19:54,350 --> 00:19:51,780
permission of his widow and everything

414
00:19:56,900 --> 00:19:54,360
that had been deposited in the National

415
00:19:58,190 --> 00:19:56,910
Archives but made the case that could

416
00:20:00,650 --> 00:19:58,200
have been presented in court and I

417
00:20:02,590 --> 00:20:00,660
thought to myself I want to be doing

418
00:20:05,600 --> 00:20:02,600
something like this this is this is

419
00:20:08,300 --> 00:20:05,610
investigation detective work that I find

420
00:20:10,910 --> 00:20:08,310
terribly exciting if a bit dry for some

421
00:20:12,560 --> 00:20:10,920
people and shortly thereafter I was

422
00:20:16,850 --> 00:20:12,570
having dinner with my parents and I

423
00:20:18,220 --> 00:20:16,860
showed them the then newly publicly

424
00:20:20,480 --> 00:20:18,230
available

425
00:20:23,270 --> 00:20:20,490
Eisenhower briefing document the

426
00:20:27,140 --> 00:20:23,280
so-called Eisenhower briefing document

427
00:20:30,650 --> 00:20:27,150
which purported to give president-elect

428
00:20:34,150 --> 00:20:30,660
Eisenhower a quick crash course on what

429
00:20:37,550 --> 00:20:34,160
had happened around President Truman in

430
00:20:40,550 --> 00:20:37,560
1947 and developing a working study

431
00:20:42,740 --> 00:20:40,560
group above top secret to try to figure

432
00:20:45,950 --> 00:20:42,750
out what in the name of God had come

433
00:20:48,500 --> 00:20:45,960
down outside of Roswell New Mexico some

434
00:20:51,590 --> 00:20:48,510
months before there was a one-page

435
00:20:57,380 --> 00:20:51,600
letter from Truman to a man named James

436
00:20:59,450 --> 00:20:57,390
Forrestal attached and I at that point

437
00:21:00,860 --> 00:20:59,460
had done some basic homework knew

438
00:21:02,899 --> 00:21:00,870
that he was our first Secretary of

439
00:21:04,760 --> 00:21:02,909
Defense knew there had been tremendous

440
00:21:05,750 --> 00:21:04,770
asset to the United States during World

441
00:21:10,060 --> 00:21:05,760
War two

442
00:21:12,950 --> 00:21:10,070
had at Truman's request after the war

443
00:21:15,230 --> 00:21:12,960
dismantled our old war department which

444
00:21:17,389 --> 00:21:15,240
had been in place since the Revolution

445
00:21:19,430 --> 00:21:17,399
and created our modern defense

446
00:21:24,409 --> 00:21:19,440
establishment the so-called Department

447
00:21:26,990 --> 00:21:24,419
of Defense I asked my parents if they

448
00:21:30,529 --> 00:21:27,000
had any thoughts or memories about him

449
00:21:33,889 --> 00:21:30,539
my dad didn't have much to say my mother

450
00:21:37,100 --> 00:21:33,899
was very very clear in her memories

451
00:21:40,010 --> 00:21:37,110
about him she was in high school when

452
00:21:43,340 --> 00:21:40,020
she first was aware of him and said you

453
00:21:47,779 --> 00:21:43,350
can't imagine how important he was to us

454
00:21:49,669 --> 00:21:47,789
how every day his name was in the paper

455
00:21:52,430 --> 00:21:49,679
for years he was the second most

456
00:21:56,120 --> 00:21:52,440
powerful man in America for some of that

457
00:21:58,820 --> 00:21:56,130
time and he was courageous he would

458
00:22:01,279 --> 00:21:58,830
isn't a desk jockey at the Pentagon he

459
00:22:04,850 --> 00:22:01,289
was at certain battles in the South

460
00:22:08,230 --> 00:22:04,860
Pacific as the secretary of Navy he was

461
00:22:11,330 --> 00:22:08,240
very charismatic and frankly as a

462
00:22:17,210 --> 00:22:11,340
teenage high school girl I had a crush

463
00:22:19,820 --> 00:22:17,220
on him that was a defining mom had a

464
00:22:20,990 --> 00:22:19,830
crush on the Secretary of Defense and

465
00:22:23,659 --> 00:22:21,000
she said if you're going to choose

466
00:22:26,120 --> 00:22:23,669
somebody in that group of 12 people here

467
00:22:28,549 --> 00:22:26,130
on this document that you're showing us

468
00:22:30,680 --> 00:22:28,559
I would be really most intrigued if you

469
00:22:32,330 --> 00:22:30,690
did James Forrestal I had it down to

470
00:22:37,970 --> 00:22:32,340
about three people but that was enough

471
00:22:39,620 --> 00:22:37,980
for me since that time I have gone

472
00:22:41,899 --> 00:22:39,630
through periods of time where I put

473
00:22:45,320 --> 00:22:41,909
stuff aside and I get back into my

474
00:22:47,330 --> 00:22:45,330
Forrestal research let me jump in here

475
00:22:51,680 --> 00:22:47,340
and I've got it I'm familiar with the

476
00:22:54,080 --> 00:22:51,690
letter to well the letter as it is to

477
00:22:56,500 --> 00:22:54,090
Forrestal in the Eisenhower briefing

478
00:22:59,120 --> 00:22:56,510
document I don't believe that those are

479
00:23:01,909 --> 00:22:59,130
legitimate documents I believe that

480
00:23:03,430 --> 00:23:01,919
those are opposed E fakes yet I'm gonna

481
00:23:07,070 --> 00:23:03,440
tell you we proud if it weren't for

482
00:23:09,019 --> 00:23:07,080
those majestic 12 documents we probably

483
00:23:11,539 --> 00:23:09,029
would not be sitting here having this

484
00:23:12,899 --> 00:23:11,549
conversation because I did look at them

485
00:23:15,810 --> 00:23:12,909
and I found them one

486
00:23:18,509 --> 00:23:15,820
I got started in all this invaluable

487
00:23:19,739 --> 00:23:18,519
research tools mm-hmm again now

488
00:23:22,109 --> 00:23:19,749
believing believing that they're

489
00:23:24,599 --> 00:23:22,119
essentially fanfiction likely written by

490
00:23:26,909 --> 00:23:24,609
people who working for the Air Force

491
00:23:30,419 --> 00:23:26,919
Office of Special Investigations they

492
00:23:32,279 --> 00:23:30,429
were well researched and got you got me

493
00:23:35,070 --> 00:23:32,289
going I mean we can disagree as to

494
00:23:37,080 --> 00:23:35,080
whether or not you think that there are

495
00:23:39,719 --> 00:23:37,090
legitimate documents that they're real

496
00:23:42,210 --> 00:23:39,729
one that they leaked out but and I don't

497
00:23:44,159 --> 00:23:42,220
but I still think that there they were

498
00:23:46,889 --> 00:23:44,169
invaluable research tools to me when I

499
00:23:49,649 --> 00:23:46,899
started in all this fair enough

500
00:23:52,469 --> 00:23:49,659
my feeling is that there is a tremendous

501
00:23:55,409 --> 00:23:52,479
number of documents out there hundreds

502
00:23:57,599 --> 00:23:55,419
of pages in fact that probably do fall

503
00:24:02,930 --> 00:23:57,609
into category that you're talking about

504
00:24:05,310 --> 00:24:02,940
of well researched well put together

505
00:24:06,119 --> 00:24:05,320
disinformation and when I say well

506
00:24:09,570 --> 00:24:06,129
research

507
00:24:13,349 --> 00:24:09,580
I mean if it's in the voice of a known

508
00:24:17,519 --> 00:24:13,359
individual that there are certain syntax

509
00:24:21,570 --> 00:24:17,529
details or typos or a classic

510
00:24:23,580 --> 00:24:21,580
misspelling here and there that were

511
00:24:25,799 --> 00:24:23,590
really looked into and that the

512
00:24:26,999 --> 00:24:25,809
typewriter faces are correct that kind

513
00:24:30,570 --> 00:24:27,009
of thing

514
00:24:35,129 --> 00:24:30,580
as an amateur as we all begin in this

515
00:24:37,519 --> 00:24:35,139
work I found the so-called Eisenhower

516
00:24:41,219 --> 00:24:37,529
briefing document very compelling I

517
00:24:43,680 --> 00:24:41,229
began to look into it on my own and I

518
00:24:45,869 --> 00:24:43,690
still have all my original cut-and-paste

519
00:24:48,810 --> 00:24:45,879
loose-leaf notebooks of researching

520
00:24:51,839 --> 00:24:48,820
every one of the individuals involved my

521
00:24:54,450 --> 00:24:51,849
thought being if I were President Truman

522
00:24:56,489 --> 00:24:54,460
are these the twelve people who would

523
00:24:59,399 --> 00:24:56,499
have been at or close to the top of my

524
00:25:00,719 --> 00:24:59,409
list what do we know about them what do

525
00:25:01,440 --> 00:25:00,729
we know about their relationship with

526
00:25:05,310 --> 00:25:01,450
each other

527
00:25:07,129 --> 00:25:05,320
I also relied to a degree on the

528
00:25:11,099 --> 00:25:07,139
opinions and the research of

529
00:25:13,799 --> 00:25:11,109
investigators who had my respect and

530
00:25:17,369 --> 00:25:13,809
admiration and had good track records at

531
00:25:21,570 --> 00:25:17,379
the top of that list now retired nuclear

532
00:25:23,519 --> 00:25:21,580
physicists and a major UFO investigator

533
00:25:26,940 --> 00:25:23,529
over the past half-century Stanton T

534
00:25:31,080 --> 00:25:26,950
Friedman I do feel that

535
00:25:33,330 --> 00:25:31,090
the original 8 page document is

536
00:25:36,090 --> 00:25:33,340
authentic as is the attached letter

537
00:25:39,240 --> 00:25:36,100
however you make an excellent point

538
00:25:41,760 --> 00:25:39,250
Frank and I I will absolutely back you

539
00:25:44,280 --> 00:25:41,770
and say if it if we could establish

540
00:25:47,910 --> 00:25:44,290
somehow in this crazy world of

541
00:25:49,830 --> 00:25:47,920
information disinformation the

542
00:25:52,590 --> 00:25:49,840
popularity of extreme conspiracy

543
00:25:55,710 --> 00:25:52,600
theories who the hell knows how one can

544
00:25:58,799 --> 00:25:55,720
even fully establish this and verify the

545
00:26:02,880 --> 00:25:58,809
authenticity of certain things but if it

546
00:26:05,040 --> 00:26:02,890
could be empirically proven that that

547
00:26:07,980 --> 00:26:05,050
Eisenhower briefing document and the

548
00:26:13,880 --> 00:26:07,990
attached letter those nine pages were in

549
00:26:16,830 --> 00:26:13,890
fact the result of a brilliant ploy to

550
00:26:18,780 --> 00:26:16,840
turn the investigation community on its

551
00:26:23,040 --> 00:26:18,790
head and scrapping with each other now

552
00:26:25,980 --> 00:26:23,050
for the past 20 years or whatever about

553
00:26:31,200 --> 00:26:25,990
that I wouldn't lose a moment's sleep

554
00:26:34,200 --> 00:26:31,210
about it however I think if the fact

555
00:26:36,540 --> 00:26:34,210
that if they are the product of this

556
00:26:39,150 --> 00:26:36,550
kind of invention and this level of

557
00:26:42,960 --> 00:26:39,160
investigation and research they are

558
00:26:44,970 --> 00:26:42,970
almost as fascinating as a result as

559
00:26:46,250 --> 00:26:44,980
they would be if they are fully

560
00:26:48,360 --> 00:26:46,260
authentic not that that's

561
00:26:50,100 --> 00:26:48,370
interchangeable but I know you get my

562
00:26:52,260 --> 00:26:50,110
point right right now let me jump in

563
00:26:54,870 --> 00:26:52,270
here with another point I believe that

564
00:26:56,370 --> 00:26:54,880
that letter is dated and it's been the

565
00:26:59,360 --> 00:26:56,380
better part of a decade since I looked

566
00:27:03,810 --> 00:26:59,370
really carefully at this stuff September

567
00:27:05,160 --> 00:27:03,820
21st or there abouts 47 24th I think 24

568
00:27:08,130 --> 00:27:05,170
okay that's fine

569
00:27:10,380 --> 00:27:08,140
and it was the direction I believe went

570
00:27:13,500 --> 00:27:10,390
to forest all and maybe Vannevar Bush

571
00:27:16,169 --> 00:27:13,510
was also mentioned he was the person in

572
00:27:18,480 --> 00:27:16,179
charge of the umbrella organization that

573
00:27:21,180 --> 00:27:18,490
oversaw the Manhattan Project SEARCH

574
00:27:23,130 --> 00:27:21,190
easel yes yep and he is the the founder

575
00:27:25,860 --> 00:27:23,140
of the Raytheon Corporation obviously a

576
00:27:30,360 --> 00:27:25,870
very plugged in guy and an extraordinary

577
00:27:33,060 --> 00:27:30,370
guy yep and in fact if you go to the

578
00:27:35,250 --> 00:27:33,070
Truman library where Truman's calendar

579
00:27:37,740 --> 00:27:35,260
is laid out day by day who he met with

580
00:27:38,770 --> 00:27:37,750
so on and so forth that meeting is there

581
00:27:43,060 --> 00:27:38,780
with

582
00:27:46,210 --> 00:27:43,070
truman bar stall and bush in the white

583
00:27:48,340 --> 00:27:46,220
house that's there so whoever did this

584
00:27:49,810 --> 00:27:48,350
obviously did some either actually back

585
00:27:51,279 --> 00:27:49,820
in those days before there was an

586
00:27:53,740 --> 00:27:51,289
Internet when these majestic 12

587
00:27:56,080 --> 00:27:53,750
documents came out they either somebody

588
00:27:59,520 --> 00:27:56,090
from the AFOSI either went there or

589
00:28:02,350 --> 00:27:59,530
hired a local researcher and they

590
00:28:04,539 --> 00:28:02,360
obviously provided some excellent

591
00:28:06,370 --> 00:28:04,549
parameters and got us information and

592
00:28:11,070 --> 00:28:06,380
were able to not not only are you

593
00:28:12,820 --> 00:28:11,080
accurate and what you're saying but very

594
00:28:15,820 --> 00:28:12,830
uncharacteristically for the Truman

595
00:28:19,000 --> 00:28:15,830
calendar no indication is given in that

596
00:28:21,250 --> 00:28:19,010
entry of what that meeting was about and

597
00:28:24,310 --> 00:28:21,260
I offer another possibility which was

598
00:28:26,169 --> 00:28:24,320
simply that it did happen and it's

599
00:28:29,620 --> 00:28:26,179
simply a fact rather than somebody

600
00:28:31,149 --> 00:28:29,630
investigating it and using it as you

601
00:28:34,180 --> 00:28:31,159
know an interesting aspect to create a

602
00:28:36,640 --> 00:28:34,190
forgery but you're correct there I just

603
00:28:38,380 --> 00:28:36,650
wanted to go ahead just let me just

604
00:28:41,460 --> 00:28:38,390
complete the thought which is just that

605
00:28:47,620 --> 00:28:41,470
this would have been less than a week

606
00:28:51,310 --> 00:28:47,630
after Forrestal was very suddenly

607
00:28:54,159 --> 00:28:51,320
without an advance announcement sworn in

608
00:28:57,940 --> 00:28:54,169
as our first secretary of defense at

609
00:28:59,919 --> 00:28:57,950
Truman's request in a cablegram from a

610
00:29:02,770 --> 00:28:59,929
battleship returning from a state visit

611
00:29:05,169 --> 00:29:02,780
from I think Columbia or Brazil yeah

612
00:29:07,210 --> 00:29:05,179
Raziel it was Rio you want the Rio they

613
00:29:09,549 --> 00:29:07,220
I believe the Rio pact might have been

614
00:29:11,020 --> 00:29:09,559
signed then when he was there I can't

615
00:29:13,510 --> 00:29:11,030
say for sure again it's been the better

616
00:29:15,570 --> 00:29:13,520
part of decades since I looked at it

617
00:29:23,080 --> 00:29:15,580
caused

618
00:29:24,880 --> 00:29:23,090
modèle candidate who would have you know

619
00:29:28,750 --> 00:29:24,890
was it would have liked to have Truman's

620
00:29:33,070 --> 00:29:28,760
job Henry Wallace to question in the

621
00:29:36,159 --> 00:29:33,080
newspapers what the emergency was that

622
00:29:38,020 --> 00:29:36,169
caused this sudden swearing it because

623
00:29:41,350 --> 00:29:38,030
it was characterized as an emergency

624
00:29:47,139 --> 00:29:41,360
it's also dated within three days of the

625
00:29:50,590 --> 00:29:47,149
so-called twining memo that general

626
00:29:54,639 --> 00:29:50,600
Nathan twining a secret memo that is

627
00:29:57,250 --> 00:29:54,649
part of classic UFO literature and fully

628
00:29:58,060 --> 00:29:57,260
authentic gilt-edged document states

629
00:30:00,639 --> 00:29:58,070
unequivocably

630
00:30:02,680 --> 00:30:00,649
quote that the phenomenon reported is

631
00:30:06,580 --> 00:30:02,690
something real and not visionary or

632
00:30:08,380 --> 00:30:06,590
fictitious so again one can argue and

633
00:30:11,320 --> 00:30:08,390
you know we're not even talking about

634
00:30:15,310 --> 00:30:11,330
Forrestal yet really that this is all

635
00:30:19,510 --> 00:30:15,320
the result of clever clever extensive

636
00:30:21,730 --> 00:30:19,520
research and fabrication or we're simply

637
00:30:29,950 --> 00:30:21,740
seeing the pieces come together as they

638
00:30:31,120 --> 00:30:29,960
happened logically in real time we good

639
00:30:33,580 --> 00:30:31,130
time we're going to get them all in

640
00:30:35,919 --> 00:30:33,590
there was also I believe a public

641
00:30:46,600 --> 00:30:35,929
statement roughly in the same time frame

642
00:30:47,950 --> 00:30:46,610
from twining as well I don't remember

643
00:30:52,720 --> 00:30:47,960
okay okay

644
00:30:55,720 --> 00:30:52,730
I think there was I'd have to go okay I

645
00:30:57,850 --> 00:30:55,730
just wanted to interject and let our

646
00:30:59,770 --> 00:30:57,860
listeners know there are two areas that

647
00:31:01,570 --> 00:30:59,780
they can check out there's actually a

648
00:31:04,330 --> 00:31:01,580
wealth of areas they can check out

649
00:31:09,430 --> 00:31:04,340
majestic 12 information to do their own

650
00:31:12,130 --> 00:31:09,440
research but one is area of research

651
00:31:15,430 --> 00:31:12,140
which is what Peter mentioned previously

652
00:31:18,909 --> 00:31:15,440
is written up by Stanton Friedman and

653
00:31:20,620 --> 00:31:18,919
author whitley strieber top-secret magic

654
00:31:23,139 --> 00:31:20,630
operation majestic 12 in the United

655
00:31:24,669 --> 00:31:23,149
States government's cover UFO cover-up

656
00:31:27,520 --> 00:31:24,679
which you know Peter Robbins knows that

657
00:31:29,320 --> 00:31:27,530
book very well and then also if our

658
00:31:31,779 --> 00:31:29,330
listeners want to see the documents

659
00:31:35,230 --> 00:31:31,789
themselves whether they be considered

660
00:31:39,279 --> 00:31:35,240
bogus or not they can actually go to the

661
00:31:41,770 --> 00:31:39,289
FBI government vaults website their

662
00:31:45,130 --> 00:31:41,780
archives and look at majestic 12 and

663
00:31:47,049 --> 00:31:45,140
they will see 22 pages related to the

664
00:31:50,440 --> 00:31:47,059
majestic 12 documents were talking about

665
00:31:53,830 --> 00:31:50,450
here and you know every now and then I

666
00:31:56,799 --> 00:31:53,840
think maybe about 80% of the documents

667
00:31:59,289 --> 00:31:56,809
might say the word bogus on them written

668
00:32:01,000 --> 00:31:59,299
in a black marker and most of them are

669
00:32:01,550 --> 00:32:01,010
redacted now I just wanted to make a

670
00:32:05,210 --> 00:32:01,560
calm

671
00:32:10,970 --> 00:32:05,220
if these documents are not authentic why

672
00:32:15,110 --> 00:32:10,980
is any part of them redacted well I play

673
00:32:18,320 --> 00:32:15,120
devil's advocate for a moment the reason

674
00:32:23,690 --> 00:32:18,330
that might be done is to further advance

675
00:32:25,670 --> 00:32:23,700
the case that oh no you know they've

676
00:32:29,390 --> 00:32:25,680
gotten some of our real documents we've

677
00:32:32,870 --> 00:32:29,400
got to cover it it up and you know a

678
00:32:35,740 --> 00:32:32,880
certain amount of theater I think we're

679
00:32:38,390 --> 00:32:35,750
seeing some of that currently in play

680
00:32:42,500 --> 00:32:38,400
relative to the Russian question and

681
00:32:44,030 --> 00:32:42,510
collusion and the furrowed brows and you

682
00:32:45,500 --> 00:32:44,040
know do we stand against them others

683
00:32:47,870 --> 00:32:45,510
should be standing for them as of this

684
00:32:51,050 --> 00:32:47,880
morning President Putin is saying that

685
00:32:53,870 --> 00:32:51,060
if we deploy middle range missiles to

686
00:32:57,320 --> 00:32:53,880
Europe then they will create a whole new

687
00:33:01,160 --> 00:32:57,330
generation of new technology and

688
00:33:06,710 --> 00:33:01,170
retarget the united states with their

689
00:33:08,930 --> 00:33:06,720
missiles it's this crazy dance that a

690
00:33:14,300 --> 00:33:08,940
certain amount of almost Kabuki theater

691
00:33:16,280 --> 00:33:14,310
is played out and to add a redaction to

692
00:33:20,180 --> 00:33:16,290
a document that's being questioned by

693
00:33:23,810 --> 00:33:20,190
people might for some investigators say

694
00:33:26,050 --> 00:33:23,820
oh well if they're protesting then there

695
00:33:28,370 --> 00:33:26,060
must be something to this they're

696
00:33:30,470 --> 00:33:28,380
they're playing chess while we're

697
00:33:32,660 --> 00:33:30,480
playing checkers on a certain level I

698
00:33:36,260 --> 00:33:32,670
think is something we see throughout the

699
00:33:38,840 --> 00:33:36,270
history of deception and this may or may

700
00:33:43,640 --> 00:33:38,850
not be an example of that oh very good

701
00:33:45,860 --> 00:33:43,650
point thank you okay yeah let's let's

702
00:33:47,690 --> 00:33:45,870
finish up with the docs again I'm gonna

703
00:33:49,400 --> 00:33:47,700
say I think they're worth reading I

704
00:33:52,130 --> 00:33:49,410
would read them with a level of

705
00:33:55,550 --> 00:33:52,140
skepticism but there is a lot of truth

706
00:33:58,430 --> 00:33:55,560
in them again going back to comparing a

707
00:34:00,740 --> 00:33:58,440
Truman and Forrestal there's a lot of

708
00:34:02,980 --> 00:34:00,750
information that is not disinformation

709
00:34:06,350 --> 00:34:02,990
its fact coming from direct sources

710
00:34:08,540 --> 00:34:06,360
Truman's Air Force aide Robert Landry is

711
00:34:10,570 --> 00:34:08,550
on record to say he briefed Truman on a

712
00:34:12,690 --> 00:34:10,580
quarterly basis about the UFO issue

713
00:34:17,680 --> 00:34:12,700
Truman is

714
00:34:21,039 --> 00:34:17,690
far as I know a president who was asked

715
00:34:24,010 --> 00:34:21,049
directly about the UFO questions in 47

716
00:34:26,500 --> 00:34:24,020
and then later again in 52 about the UFO

717
00:34:29,470 --> 00:34:26,510
issue there's no question when it came

718
00:34:32,649 --> 00:34:29,480
to UFOs the buck stopped with Truman yes

719
00:34:35,589 --> 00:34:32,659
much documented and on the record

720
00:34:37,990 --> 00:34:35,599
regarding Forrestal being directly

721
00:34:40,510 --> 00:34:38,000
involved in the UFO stuff what can you

722
00:34:44,200 --> 00:34:40,520
tell us about all that well

723
00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:44,210
yes back to your original question for

724
00:34:50,680 --> 00:34:48,010
me i-i've just became completely

725
00:34:53,559 --> 00:34:50,690
fascinated by the extraordinary life

726
00:34:57,069 --> 00:34:53,569
this man lived and the circumstances

727
00:35:01,779 --> 00:34:57,079
surrounding his alleged suicide which

728
00:35:04,420 --> 00:35:01,789
was the official party line and then for

729
00:35:07,450 --> 00:35:04,430
somebody who had such an important place

730
00:35:10,870 --> 00:35:07,460
in American history during the world war

731
00:35:14,829 --> 00:35:10,880
two years and was such a well-known

732
00:35:18,789 --> 00:35:14,839
presence from the 20s through to the end

733
00:35:21,760 --> 00:35:18,799
of his life in American life how he was

734
00:35:24,370 --> 00:35:21,770
literally written out of the collective

735
00:35:26,980 --> 00:35:24,380
consciousness of Americans and who I'm

736
00:35:30,370 --> 00:35:26,990
sure if you did a random sampling of

737
00:35:32,589 --> 00:35:30,380
nine out of ten or 19 out of 20 or 49

738
00:35:35,230 --> 00:35:32,599
out of 50 you would find little

739
00:35:37,750 --> 00:35:35,240
recognition unless you knew somebody who

740
00:35:40,420 --> 00:35:37,760
had been in the Navy or had some kind of

741
00:35:43,000 --> 00:35:40,430
awareness of the fact that in the 50s

742
00:35:48,220 --> 00:35:43,010
there was a nuclear carrier christen

743
00:35:50,589 --> 00:35:48,230
named the USS Forrestal briefly James

744
00:35:53,410 --> 00:35:50,599
Forrestal was born in small town in

745
00:35:56,920 --> 00:35:53,420
upstate New York irish-american family

746
00:35:59,529 --> 00:35:56,930
mother'll a teacher at a parochial

747
00:36:02,849 --> 00:35:59,539
school father a contractor active in

748
00:36:05,890 --> 00:36:02,859
democratic politics very competitive kid

749
00:36:08,890 --> 00:36:05,900
basketball player amateur boxer very

750
00:36:11,799 --> 00:36:08,900
knowledgeable about boxing got accepted

751
00:36:13,960 --> 00:36:11,809
to Dartmouth a terrific school but as

752
00:36:17,529 --> 00:36:13,970
soon as he could transfer to Princeton

753
00:36:19,930 --> 00:36:17,539
where he began to appreciate that he was

754
00:36:21,849 --> 00:36:19,940
meeting future movers and shakers in the

755
00:36:25,180 --> 00:36:21,859
world that he wanted his life to amount

756
00:36:25,900 --> 00:36:25,190
to something and made his connections

757
00:36:27,250 --> 00:36:25,910
many of them

758
00:36:30,220 --> 00:36:27,260
which would last for the rest of his

759
00:36:31,750 --> 00:36:30,230
life and then two or three weeks before

760
00:36:34,539 --> 00:36:31,760
you're scheduled to graduate from

761
00:36:37,180 --> 00:36:34,549
Princeton deciding to simply leave

762
00:36:39,130 --> 00:36:37,190
school go to Canada and train with the

763
00:36:42,849 --> 00:36:39,140
RAF to be a fighter pilot because he

764
00:36:45,250 --> 00:36:42,859
wanted to get into the war World War one

765
00:36:48,970 --> 00:36:45,260
now yes exactly

766
00:36:51,640 --> 00:36:48,980
he well unfortunately for him the war

767
00:36:53,109 --> 00:36:51,650
ended before he was able to and at that

768
00:36:57,160 --> 00:36:53,119
point he returned to the United States

769
00:36:59,319 --> 00:36:57,170
decided where his talent should go is to

770
00:37:02,190 --> 00:36:59,329
making money and having a good living

771
00:37:06,670 --> 00:37:02,200
and he joined a brokerage on Wall Street

772
00:37:10,809 --> 00:37:06,680
built up a career built up a fair amount

773
00:37:13,480 --> 00:37:10,819
of money in the roaring 20s shone like a

774
00:37:15,880 --> 00:37:13,490
star in fact I've said to people on and

775
00:37:21,520 --> 00:37:15,890
off over the years especially folks who

776
00:37:24,370 --> 00:37:21,530
read had F scott Fitzgerald looked for a

777
00:37:26,740 --> 00:37:24,380
real person to base his Jay Gatsby

778
00:37:29,650 --> 00:37:26,750
character on in the great gatsby which

779
00:37:31,960 --> 00:37:29,660
he did not it was an invention it might

780
00:37:34,569 --> 00:37:31,970
as well have been James Forrestal by the

781
00:37:38,260 --> 00:37:34,579
roaring 20s the middle of the 20s he had

782
00:37:40,900 --> 00:37:38,270
married a woman who was a former

783
00:37:43,240 --> 00:37:40,910
Ziegfeld Follies showgirl and an editor

784
00:37:45,279 --> 00:37:43,250
at Vogue he was a member of the

785
00:37:49,450 --> 00:37:45,289
Algonquin Round Table numbered among his

786
00:37:53,440 --> 00:37:49,460
friends Robert Benchley Harpo Marx Gary

787
00:37:55,660 --> 00:37:53,450
Cooper Greta Garbo extraordinary

788
00:37:59,049 --> 00:37:55,670
intellects people who were fascinated by

789
00:38:03,849 --> 00:37:59,059
him the market crashed he was one of the

790
00:38:06,539 --> 00:38:03,859
few brokers to keep his firm open alive

791
00:38:09,370 --> 00:38:06,549
and ultimately continuing to make money

792
00:38:13,660 --> 00:38:09,380
throughout the darkest days of the 30s

793
00:38:16,120 --> 00:38:13,670
his then mentor a man named Ferdinand a

794
00:38:18,640 --> 00:38:16,130
burst at a very influential banker and

795
00:38:20,950 --> 00:38:18,650
friend of President Roosevelt's who we

796
00:38:23,230 --> 00:38:20,960
met at Princeton brought Forrestal to

797
00:38:26,410 --> 00:38:23,240
the attention of the president who

798
00:38:29,620 --> 00:38:26,420
invited him to put his career on hold

799
00:38:31,210 --> 00:38:29,630
and come to Washington to join what was

800
00:38:34,720 --> 00:38:31,220
euphemistically called the kitchen

801
00:38:37,059 --> 00:38:34,730
cabinet a joke of course on the

802
00:38:39,549 --> 00:38:37,069
president's actual cabinet but also

803
00:38:42,160 --> 00:38:39,559
known as the dollar-a-year men and

804
00:38:44,519 --> 00:38:42,170
these were all that was the way it was

805
00:38:49,269 --> 00:38:44,529
that then they were all wealthy

806
00:38:51,699 --> 00:38:49,279
privileged successful white men who had

807
00:38:55,269 --> 00:38:51,709
were captains of industry in business

808
00:38:57,789 --> 00:38:55,279
who were patriotic enough to come to

809
00:38:59,469 --> 00:38:57,799
Washington and serve at the pleasure of

810
00:39:02,709 --> 00:38:59,479
the President of the United States for

811
00:39:05,289 --> 00:39:02,719
the token fee of $1 a day ultimately all

812
00:39:08,049 --> 00:39:05,299
of them as the economy improved went

813
00:39:10,199 --> 00:39:08,059
back to their previous jobs Forrestal

814
00:39:16,209 --> 00:39:10,209
never did he was the one who stayed and

815
00:39:20,109 --> 00:39:16,219
he went on to become deputy or assistant

816
00:39:23,670 --> 00:39:20,119
secretary of Navy involved in involved

817
00:39:29,620 --> 00:39:23,680
in overseeing procurement of all

818
00:39:33,130 --> 00:39:29,630
supplies materials everything for the

819
00:39:35,469 --> 00:39:33,140
Navy a huge job by any account he did it

820
00:39:38,319 --> 00:39:35,479
brilliantly thrived under pressure when

821
00:39:41,469 --> 00:39:38,329
Frank nog secretary of Navy dive a heart

822
00:39:45,609 --> 00:39:41,479
attack in 1944 Roosevelt made him

823
00:39:48,729 --> 00:39:45,619
Secretary of the Navy and what Frank

824
00:39:51,459 --> 00:39:48,739
said was correct more than any other

825
00:39:53,620 --> 00:39:51,469
individual it was James Vincent

826
00:39:56,199 --> 00:39:53,630
Forrestal who was responsible for

827
00:39:59,349 --> 00:39:56,209
helping us rebuild our political Pacific

828
00:40:04,150 --> 00:39:59,359
Fleet after it was decimated in December

829
00:40:06,219 --> 00:40:04,160
of 1947 in the Japanese attack he was at

830
00:40:10,329 --> 00:40:06,229
the battles of Leyte Gulf

831
00:40:13,419 --> 00:40:10,339
Iwo Jima Tokyo Bay I mean he put himself

832
00:40:18,819 --> 00:40:13,429
in harm's way repeatedly at the end of

833
00:40:21,989 --> 00:40:18,829
the war he was asked to stay on as I

834
00:40:25,029 --> 00:40:21,999
mentioned earlier to find a way to

835
00:40:27,759 --> 00:40:25,039
dismantle this huge tangled web of the

836
00:40:29,829 --> 00:40:27,769
services who were always griping with

837
00:40:31,269 --> 00:40:29,839
each other and looking for more funding

838
00:40:32,789 --> 00:40:31,279
and certain amount of jealousy and

839
00:40:35,469 --> 00:40:32,799
backbiting

840
00:40:38,650 --> 00:40:35,479
again not that I don't interrupt here

841
00:40:39,669 --> 00:40:38,660
but I think your point to make that back

842
00:40:41,890 --> 00:40:39,679
that it was basically there was a

843
00:40:43,959 --> 00:40:41,900
separate Department of the Navy and it's

844
00:40:46,019 --> 00:40:43,969
a separate Department of the war there

845
00:40:49,870 --> 00:40:46,029
was no separate branch for the Air Force

846
00:40:53,460 --> 00:40:49,880
this was yeah well well there was an

847
00:40:55,349 --> 00:40:53,470
Army Air Corps that's correct

848
00:40:57,540 --> 00:40:55,359
you know and what they did was they

849
00:40:59,820 --> 00:40:57,550
split that off formed a separate Air

850
00:41:02,220 --> 00:40:59,830
Force so it was basically Air Force Army

851
00:41:05,099 --> 00:41:02,230
Navy and then obviously the Marines are

852
00:41:07,830 --> 00:41:05,109
a bridge under the Navy basically so

853
00:41:10,260 --> 00:41:07,840
yeah well the Marines had always been

854
00:41:13,290 --> 00:41:10,270
under the Navy but the Air Force came in

855
00:41:16,890 --> 00:41:13,300
with forests all the Air Force was

856
00:41:19,700 --> 00:41:16,900
actually activated in September of 1947

857
00:41:24,180 --> 00:41:19,710
let's also bear in mind that this

858
00:41:28,050 --> 00:41:24,190
incredibly diligent hard-working guy was

859
00:41:30,480 --> 00:41:28,060
an ultimate team player he was genuinely

860
00:41:32,130 --> 00:41:30,490
patriotic he loved his country I mean

861
00:41:34,710 --> 00:41:32,140
here's a guy from a small town it was

862
00:41:37,589 --> 00:41:34,720
risen to this position you know a real

863
00:41:40,500 --> 00:41:37,599
Horatio Alger story and earned by hard

864
00:41:43,920 --> 00:41:40,510
work by this point though he was also in

865
00:41:45,870 --> 00:41:43,930
an incredibly loveless marriage the

866
00:41:47,970 --> 00:41:45,880
descriptions I've read of Forrestal over

867
00:41:51,120 --> 00:41:47,980
the years many of them written by

868
00:41:54,180 --> 00:41:51,130
friends and enemies I made a point years

869
00:41:56,670 --> 00:41:54,190
ago of starting to acquire out of print

870
00:41:59,579 --> 00:41:56,680
memoirs by everybody who knew him and I

871
00:42:01,589 --> 00:41:59,589
read everything I could read relative to

872
00:42:04,620 --> 00:42:01,599
different people's take on him he was

873
00:42:06,690 --> 00:42:04,630
Kennedy level charismatic he was the guy

874
00:42:08,040 --> 00:42:06,700
that all the women wanted to sleep with

875
00:42:11,550 --> 00:42:08,050
and all the men wanted to have a drink

876
00:42:15,270 --> 00:42:11,560
with he was competitive level tennis

877
00:42:18,089 --> 00:42:15,280
player and golfer he was an incredibly

878
00:42:20,220 --> 00:42:18,099
sharp dresser a very handsome guy who

879
00:42:22,560 --> 00:42:20,230
when he walked into a room that's where

880
00:42:26,250 --> 00:42:22,570
the attention would be but despite that

881
00:42:30,270 --> 00:42:26,260
broken nose yes well that's another

882
00:42:33,000 --> 00:42:30,280
thing in 1913 or so as a student at

883
00:42:35,730 --> 00:42:33,010
Princeton and a passionate amateur boxer

884
00:42:38,310 --> 00:42:35,740
he could rattle off stats of anybody in

885
00:42:40,530 --> 00:42:38,320
the history of boxing like some baseball

886
00:42:43,170 --> 00:42:40,540
geek or you know another sports fan

887
00:42:45,720 --> 00:42:43,180
could do with their favorite sport his

888
00:42:49,320 --> 00:42:45,730
nose was broken in an amateur match at

889
00:42:51,839 --> 00:42:49,330
Princeton and he decided definitely to

890
00:42:55,530 --> 00:42:51,849
not have it set because he thought it

891
00:42:57,660 --> 00:42:55,540
would make him look tougher yes I mean

892
00:42:59,700 --> 00:42:57,670
but that was a very conscious decision

893
00:43:02,220 --> 00:42:59,710
and he was a tough guy another thing I

894
00:43:04,500 --> 00:43:02,230
do know about him was he would spar me

895
00:43:07,140 --> 00:43:04,510
that's what guys did back then you know

896
00:43:08,730 --> 00:43:07,150
recreational sparring in box oh yeah

897
00:43:13,050 --> 00:43:08,740
climbed in the ring with the heavyweight

898
00:43:14,580 --> 00:43:13,060
champion of the world gene Tunney that's

899
00:43:16,980 --> 00:43:14,590
like an amateur boxer jumping into the

900
00:43:19,200 --> 00:43:16,990
ring with Deontay Wilder it's know he

901
00:43:21,660 --> 00:43:19,210
really was bigger than life and a true

902
00:43:25,860 --> 00:43:21,670
character in that sense the fact was

903
00:43:28,140 --> 00:43:25,870
though that this tough exterior and and

904
00:43:30,120 --> 00:43:28,150
kind of the hardscrabble coming up

905
00:43:33,680 --> 00:43:30,130
through the ranks that he had before he

906
00:43:38,370 --> 00:43:33,690
got into academia was something that hid

907
00:43:41,520 --> 00:43:38,380
a very vulnerable intellectual part of

908
00:43:44,790 --> 00:43:41,530
himself he was a very serious reader of

909
00:43:46,710 --> 00:43:44,800
ancient Greek poetry he appreciated the

910
00:43:48,360 --> 00:43:46,720
classics again he had gone to Dartmouth

911
00:43:52,170 --> 00:43:48,370
into Princeton and he had studied and

912
00:43:55,530 --> 00:43:52,180
you know learned a lot but he had what I

913
00:44:00,510 --> 00:43:55,540
can only describe as to ultimately fatal

914
00:44:02,790 --> 00:44:00,520
character flaws he had affairs from the

915
00:44:07,500 --> 00:44:02,800
beginning of his marriage it's actually

916
00:44:09,540 --> 00:44:07,510
rather sad to see his wife started out

917
00:44:11,730 --> 00:44:09,550
by hoping that it would change and

918
00:44:14,160 --> 00:44:11,740
ultimately see did the same thing and it

919
00:44:17,250 --> 00:44:14,170
was a quite an empty loveless marriage

920
00:44:22,710 --> 00:44:17,260
for the the great majority of it but he

921
00:44:27,360 --> 00:44:22,720
seemed to lack the ability to how can I

922
00:44:30,750 --> 00:44:27,370
say thrive in true intimacy or to allow

923
00:44:34,800 --> 00:44:30,760
anybody beyond a certain level into his

924
00:44:37,740 --> 00:44:34,810
life or his thoughts he also tended to

925
00:44:39,660 --> 00:44:37,750
personalize his professional successes

926
00:44:41,100 --> 00:44:39,670
and failures of course if you're

927
00:44:43,260 --> 00:44:41,110
professional and you're successful in

928
00:44:45,330 --> 00:44:43,270
something it's great to you know blow

929
00:44:49,380 --> 00:44:45,340
your own horn and take pride in that

930
00:44:52,590 --> 00:44:49,390
achievement but to beat yourself up with

931
00:44:54,840 --> 00:44:52,600
to agonize over things that may not even

932
00:44:57,450 --> 00:44:54,850
have been your fault but they happen on

933
00:44:59,160 --> 00:44:57,460
your watch and let them really get to

934
00:45:01,290 --> 00:44:59,170
you that was something that he suffered

935
00:45:05,330 --> 00:45:01,300
from let's also remember that he was

936
00:45:09,300 --> 00:45:05,340
sworn in very suddenly as Secretary of

937
00:45:12,060 --> 00:45:09,310
Defense a scant six and a half weeks

938
00:45:14,250 --> 00:45:12,070
after whatever happened outside of

939
00:45:16,020 --> 00:45:14,260
Roswell New Mexico has yeah I do want to

940
00:45:19,200 --> 00:45:16,030
jump in here real quick and I make

941
00:45:20,790 --> 00:45:19,210
another short out that there there seems

942
00:45:25,670 --> 00:45:20,800
to be a lot of talk as if

943
00:45:28,790 --> 00:45:25,680
the entire defense infrastructure is

944
00:45:31,770 --> 00:45:28,800
sort of a completely revamped and

945
00:45:34,110 --> 00:45:31,780
restructured in that six weeks there is

946
00:45:35,400 --> 00:45:34,120
no way that that happened this kind of

947
00:45:38,460 --> 00:45:35,410
restructuring creating a Defense

948
00:45:40,200 --> 00:45:38,470
Department breaking off a separate Air

949
00:45:42,360 --> 00:45:40,210
Force and all that that is something

950
00:45:42,930 --> 00:45:42,370
that was certainly in the pipeline oh

951
00:45:45,420 --> 00:45:42,940
sure

952
00:45:47,430 --> 00:45:45,430
years years before and I think that does

953
00:45:49,800 --> 00:45:47,440
get suggested sometimes that this entire

954
00:45:51,930 --> 00:45:49,810
this entire restructuring happened is a

955
00:45:53,220 --> 00:45:51,940
direct result of Roswell there is no way

956
00:45:57,630 --> 00:45:53,230
that I don't know that short of time

957
00:46:00,480 --> 00:45:57,640
well exactly for goodness sakes the

958
00:46:01,590 --> 00:46:00,490
Defense Department was ready you know I

959
00:46:04,200 --> 00:46:01,600
mean they were just putting the final

960
00:46:07,320 --> 00:46:04,210
polish on it at that point we're talking

961
00:46:10,110 --> 00:46:07,330
about July or very late June of 1947

962
00:46:14,430 --> 00:46:10,120
because nobody has pinned down the day

963
00:46:18,960 --> 00:46:14,440
of the crash however what's important to

964
00:46:20,730 --> 00:46:18,970
remember here and I think chant among

965
00:46:23,730 --> 00:46:20,740
the visual materials I sent you as a

966
00:46:25,500 --> 00:46:23,740
flow chart showing the responsibilities

967
00:46:28,590 --> 00:46:25,510
of the SEC of the new Secretary of

968
00:46:31,530 --> 00:46:28,600
Defense and it's mind blowing you see

969
00:46:34,770 --> 00:46:31,540
that next to President Truman this man

970
00:46:36,990 --> 00:46:34,780
was the most knowledgeable and powerful

971
00:46:40,290 --> 00:46:37,000
about anything regarding the defense of

972
00:46:42,120 --> 00:46:40,300
the United States of anybody else in the

973
00:46:45,200 --> 00:46:42,130
world the responsibility on their

974
00:46:49,830 --> 00:46:45,210
shoulders was tremendous so we can

975
00:46:52,620 --> 00:46:49,840
deduce and logically presume that any

976
00:46:55,490 --> 00:46:52,630
information about this phenomena that

977
00:46:57,780 --> 00:46:55,500
was crashing into Washington DC

978
00:47:00,450 --> 00:46:57,790
officialdom at the highest levels

979
00:47:02,550 --> 00:47:00,460
starting a week and a half before

980
00:47:05,610 --> 00:47:02,560
Roswell with the Kenneth Arnold

981
00:47:07,530 --> 00:47:05,620
sightings of June 24th and then

982
00:47:09,510 --> 00:47:07,540
amplifying around the country and around

983
00:47:12,560 --> 00:47:09,520
the world everything that was coming

984
00:47:15,360 --> 00:47:12,570
across Truman's desk was coming across

985
00:47:20,150 --> 00:47:15,370
forestalls desk and as the job

986
00:47:23,630 --> 00:47:20,160
description description notes and as the

987
00:47:26,190 --> 00:47:23,640
Truman Forrestal letter underscores

988
00:47:29,310 --> 00:47:26,200
authentic or inauthentic it's simply

989
00:47:32,310 --> 00:47:29,320
factual that the responsibility was

990
00:47:34,560 --> 00:47:32,320
delegated to Forrestal by the president

991
00:47:37,410 --> 00:47:34,570
the buck stopped with Forrest

992
00:47:40,410 --> 00:47:37,420
in that sense and the combination and

993
00:47:43,860 --> 00:47:40,420
part of the case that I make in the

994
00:47:46,920 --> 00:47:43,870
lectures in the essays in the articles

995
00:47:50,550 --> 00:47:46,930
that I've written and spoken about about

996
00:47:52,890 --> 00:47:50,560
James Forrestal over the years go on a

997
00:47:56,250 --> 00:47:52,900
very careful sometimes day-to-day

998
00:48:00,510 --> 00:47:56,260
hour-to-hour timeline once he is sworn

999
00:48:03,720 --> 00:48:00,520
in and we soup I superimpose authentic

1000
00:48:06,120 --> 00:48:03,730
unquestioned documentation on top of

1001
00:48:08,490 --> 00:48:06,130
schedules on top of observations about

1002
00:48:12,380 --> 00:48:08,500
his character and his behavior by

1003
00:48:15,980 --> 00:48:12,390
friends enemies and employees and I

1004
00:48:19,650 --> 00:48:15,990
should also insert here because as

1005
00:48:24,410 --> 00:48:19,660
investigative writers who are self

1006
00:48:31,530 --> 00:48:27,570
Leslie Kane or George Knapp these are

1007
00:48:34,020 --> 00:48:31,540
real journalism people I know respect

1008
00:48:36,360 --> 00:48:34,030
and admire they're trained to do the

1009
00:48:39,750 --> 00:48:36,370
work that I've trained myself to do and

1010
00:48:42,780 --> 00:48:39,760
they're journalists I'm a writer I'm not

1011
00:48:48,750 --> 00:48:42,790
a journalist however that understood we

1012
00:48:50,820 --> 00:48:48,760
bring to our body of tools when we sign

1013
00:48:53,400 --> 00:48:50,830
on for something that we have decided

1014
00:48:56,490 --> 00:48:53,410
we're going to do our life experience

1015
00:48:58,530 --> 00:48:56,500
with us I'm very proud to say although I

1016
00:49:03,360 --> 00:48:58,540
would not have said it publicly at the

1017
00:49:05,820 --> 00:49:03,370
time that for eight years eight and a

1018
00:49:11,600 --> 00:49:05,830
half years from the late 80s into the

1019
00:49:14,810 --> 00:49:11,610
mid 90s I was a trained professional

1020
00:49:17,490 --> 00:49:14,820
crisis intervention worker with a

1021
00:49:19,320 --> 00:49:17,500
internationally respected organization a

1022
00:49:23,130 --> 00:49:19,330
British organization called the

1023
00:49:27,570 --> 00:49:23,140
Samaritans international for those years

1024
00:49:29,430 --> 00:49:27,580
I was a online phone volunteer and for

1025
00:49:32,670 --> 00:49:29,440
another four years an online phone

1026
00:49:34,830 --> 00:49:32,680
volunteer and shift supervisor to be

1027
00:49:36,840 --> 00:49:34,840
blunt of the busiest suicide hotline in

1028
00:49:39,270 --> 00:49:36,850
the United States these Samaritans New

1029
00:49:42,380 --> 00:49:39,280
York City office the training that they

1030
00:49:46,130 --> 00:49:42,390
gave us as laypeople in understanding

1031
00:49:48,120 --> 00:49:46,140
aspects of stress addiction depression

1032
00:49:51,780 --> 00:49:48,130
suicide

1033
00:49:54,960 --> 00:49:51,790
mental illness have been invaluable to

1034
00:49:57,600 --> 00:49:54,970
me and I'd like to think that I was of

1035
00:50:00,750 --> 00:49:57,610
some value to some of the souls that

1036
00:50:01,550 --> 00:50:00,760
call in the middle of the night to help

1037
00:50:02,960 --> 00:50:01,560
them

1038
00:50:05,550 --> 00:50:02,970
[Music]

1039
00:50:10,110 --> 00:50:05,560
mallesh allegorically and sometimes

1040
00:50:13,350 --> 00:50:10,120
actually I'd bring it up because I spoke

1041
00:50:16,200 --> 00:50:13,360
to a lot of people over those years who

1042
00:50:18,270 --> 00:50:16,210
were actively suicidal or depressed

1043
00:50:22,050 --> 00:50:18,280
enough that they were contemplating it

1044
00:50:26,790 --> 00:50:22,060
and it was at that time also to digress

1045
00:50:30,090 --> 00:50:26,800
for 20 seconds that I became aware of an

1046
00:50:32,880 --> 00:50:30,100
extraordinary psychiatrist named John

1047
00:50:35,760 --> 00:50:32,890
Mack years before he became involved in

1048
00:50:39,720 --> 00:50:35,770
UFO abduction studies because he was a

1049
00:50:41,670 --> 00:50:39,730
very respected authority on adolescent

1050
00:50:43,920 --> 00:50:41,680
suicide and while I work for the

1051
00:50:46,890 --> 00:50:43,930
Samaritans I I read a book that he wrote

1052
00:50:50,220 --> 00:50:46,900
about adolescent suicide anyway where it

1053
00:50:52,680 --> 00:50:50,230
applies to James Forrestal when you are

1054
00:50:55,380 --> 00:50:52,690
suicidally depressed it's often the

1055
00:50:58,890 --> 00:50:55,390
result of a number of factors and I

1056
00:51:01,260 --> 00:50:58,900
would never say or suggest that the

1057
00:51:03,990 --> 00:51:01,270
reason that he did try to take his life

1058
00:51:04,710 --> 00:51:04,000
and make no mistake about it he was

1059
00:51:09,150 --> 00:51:04,720
murdered

1060
00:51:11,490 --> 00:51:09,160
but he did try to take his life before

1061
00:51:13,380 --> 00:51:11,500
he was stopped actively and then

1062
00:51:21,060 --> 00:51:13,390
institutionalized at Bethesda Naval

1063
00:51:25,770 --> 00:51:21,070
Hospital he knew that he was unable to

1064
00:51:28,920 --> 00:51:25,780
do anything to affect the UFO situation

1065
00:51:33,180 --> 00:51:28,930
every single day that he was Secretary

1066
00:51:35,640 --> 00:51:33,190
of Defense and it got to him again a

1067
00:51:38,100 --> 00:51:35,650
terrible marriage the fact that there

1068
00:51:43,320 --> 00:51:38,110
were people around Truman who were

1069
00:51:45,780 --> 00:51:43,330
jealous of Truman's longtime tremendous

1070
00:51:47,790 --> 00:51:45,790
respect for Forrestal found a way to

1071
00:51:52,140 --> 00:51:47,800
undermine it in a very specific

1072
00:51:54,450 --> 00:51:52,150
situation in 1948 and forestalls star

1073
00:51:56,670 --> 00:51:54,460
went into the descent that caused him

1074
00:52:00,570 --> 00:51:56,680
tremendous depression

1075
00:52:01,890 --> 00:52:00,580
when Truman was elected president in an

1076
00:52:03,810 --> 00:52:01,900
election where

1077
00:52:07,470 --> 00:52:03,820
the odds were tremendously against him

1078
00:52:10,770 --> 00:52:07,480
and everybody thought that then New York

1079
00:52:16,110 --> 00:52:10,780
governor Dewey was going to be our next

1080
00:52:20,130 --> 00:52:16,120
president pro forma all members of the

1081
00:52:22,470 --> 00:52:20,140
cabinet turn in their resignations most

1082
00:52:24,150 --> 00:52:22,480
with the hope that the resignation will

1083
00:52:26,730 --> 00:52:24,160
not be accepted and they will get to

1084
00:52:30,030 --> 00:52:26,740
keep their job and there is no question

1085
00:52:33,290 --> 00:52:30,040
that this was crushing to Forrestal that

1086
00:52:36,090 --> 00:52:33,300
his resignation was accepted on the day

1087
00:52:39,960 --> 00:52:36,100
the very afternoon of the

1088
00:52:42,120 --> 00:52:39,970
change-of-command ceremony and I'm sure

1089
00:52:44,370 --> 00:52:42,130
there's no way that it just happened

1090
00:52:48,110 --> 00:52:44,380
then it had been building up for months

1091
00:52:51,300 --> 00:52:48,120
without him betraying it to the public

1092
00:52:54,630 --> 00:52:51,310
he literally had a profound nervous

1093
00:52:57,000 --> 00:52:54,640
breakdown that afternoon and the

1094
00:52:58,770 --> 00:52:57,010
accounts of it and they are multiple and

1095
00:53:02,330 --> 00:52:58,780
many of them from people who went on to

1096
00:53:05,970 --> 00:53:02,340
very distinguished personas an American

1097
00:53:09,000 --> 00:53:05,980
public life is heartbreaking it's

1098
00:53:10,740 --> 00:53:09,010
absolutely heartbreaking within days

1099
00:53:14,400 --> 00:53:10,750
though he was institutionalized at

1100
00:53:16,500 --> 00:53:14,410
Bethesda Naval Hospital in Maryland most

1101
00:53:20,930 --> 00:53:16,510
appropriate as a former secretary of

1102
00:53:24,540 --> 00:53:20,940
Navy was held for six weeks under a

1103
00:53:27,050 --> 00:53:24,550
24-hour 3:00 shift marine guard for the

1104
00:53:30,540 --> 00:53:27,060
first part of that time I am convinced

1105
00:53:34,430 --> 00:53:30,550
heavily medicated but then not so much I

1106
00:53:37,010 --> 00:53:34,440
think it's also fair to assume that the

1107
00:53:41,370 --> 00:53:37,020
medical and mental health professionals

1108
00:53:44,820 --> 00:53:41,380
assigned to this VIP patient were not

1109
00:53:46,920 --> 00:53:44,830
cleared know anything about the UFO

1110
00:53:50,970 --> 00:53:46,930
situation the potential threat they

1111
00:53:55,140 --> 00:53:50,980
represented and all they were concerned

1112
00:53:57,420 --> 00:53:55,150
with was trying to help this person to

1113
00:54:00,240 --> 00:53:57,430
get well and get through the depression

1114
00:54:04,710 --> 00:54:00,250
that had caused several suicides suicide

1115
00:54:07,380 --> 00:54:04,720
attempts this is where one of my

1116
00:54:10,440 --> 00:54:07,390
proudest points of as a independent

1117
00:54:13,650 --> 00:54:10,450
investigator I'm able to establish a

1118
00:54:14,700 --> 00:54:13,660
timeline with real people with real

1119
00:54:18,210 --> 00:54:14,710
events

1120
00:54:23,280 --> 00:54:18,220
with real documentation where we see he

1121
00:54:25,590 --> 00:54:23,290
starts to respond to the the treatment

1122
00:54:28,620 --> 00:54:25,600
that he's being given however make no

1123
00:54:31,590 --> 00:54:28,630
mistake about it I think James Forrestal

1124
00:54:34,290 --> 00:54:31,600
knew leading up to the change of command

1125
00:54:37,230 --> 00:54:34,300
ceremony on March 17th when he stepped

1126
00:54:40,170 --> 00:54:37,240
down and our second Secretary of Defense

1127
00:54:41,790 --> 00:54:40,180
Lewis K Johnson essentially a Democratic

1128
00:54:43,590 --> 00:54:41,800
Party hack who had made a lot of

1129
00:54:46,020 --> 00:54:43,600
donations it's the way it works

1130
00:54:50,900 --> 00:54:46,030
sometimes became our second secretary

1131
00:54:53,850 --> 00:54:50,910
Secretary of Defense that Forrestal knew

1132
00:54:58,980 --> 00:54:53,860
in a Greek tragedy sense that he had to

1133
00:55:02,640 --> 00:54:58,990
die let's face it right now the three of

1134
00:55:06,600 --> 00:55:02,650
us and everybody listening either has

1135
00:55:09,270 --> 00:55:06,610
seen a therapist a counselor a

1136
00:55:12,390 --> 00:55:09,280
psychologist or psychiatrist or knows

1137
00:55:15,900 --> 00:55:12,400
somebody who has with no exceptions I

1138
00:55:18,090 --> 00:55:15,910
would be willing to bet in 1949 it was

1139
00:55:20,760 --> 00:55:18,100
just the opposite literally nobody

1140
00:55:25,050 --> 00:55:20,770
well my stigma back in those days

1141
00:55:29,340 --> 00:55:25,060
apparently moly not just a stigma but

1142
00:55:32,400 --> 00:55:29,350
imagine this guy is one of America's

1143
00:55:36,060 --> 00:55:32,410
ultimate let's say top five leading

1144
00:55:38,850 --> 00:55:36,070
alpha males I mean you know he he eats

1145
00:55:40,860 --> 00:55:38,860
steel for breakfasts and you know um he

1146
00:55:43,410 --> 00:55:40,870
is bigger than life he helped us win

1147
00:55:45,060 --> 00:55:43,420
World War two he helped us get out of

1148
00:55:47,850 --> 00:55:45,070
the depression he's the ultimate

1149
00:55:50,840 --> 00:55:47,860
self-made man he's a boxer he's a tennis

1150
00:55:54,690 --> 00:55:50,850
player he's a golfer all he is it

1151
00:55:58,590 --> 00:55:54,700
I'm pious nervous breakdowns pardon me

1152
00:56:01,500 --> 00:55:58,600
in 1949 our third girls real men didn't

1153
00:56:04,530 --> 00:56:01,510
have them and the thought that this man

1154
00:56:06,030 --> 00:56:04,540
had cracked and everybody knew it it had

1155
00:56:08,400 --> 00:56:06,040
happened in public

1156
00:56:12,990 --> 00:56:08,410
thousands of people were aware of it at

1157
00:56:16,140 --> 00:56:13,000
the same time it I I am convinced that

1158
00:56:19,890 --> 00:56:16,150
with those people surrounding Truman the

1159
00:56:20,820 --> 00:56:19,900
concern that he had something called a

1160
00:56:24,530 --> 00:56:20,830
nervous breakdown

1161
00:56:27,780 --> 00:56:24,540
I mean that means that if he gets well

1162
00:56:28,200 --> 00:56:27,790
whatever that means he could relapse and

1163
00:56:30,480 --> 00:56:28,210
if

1164
00:56:32,120 --> 00:56:30,490
he does he could tell everybody

1165
00:56:34,290 --> 00:56:32,130
everything he knows where all the bodies

1166
00:56:37,710 --> 00:56:34,300
allegorically are buried he knows

1167
00:56:39,329 --> 00:56:37,720
everything he has to die oh good he's

1168
00:56:41,490 --> 00:56:39,339
smart enough to be aware of it he's

1169
00:56:44,609 --> 00:56:41,500
trying to throw himself from the moving

1170
00:56:47,339 --> 00:56:44,619
car taking him from Hobe Sound and

1171
00:56:50,820 --> 00:56:47,349
Robert Lovett future Secretary of

1172
00:56:53,190 --> 00:56:50,830
Defense whose house he has stayed in for

1173
00:56:54,810 --> 00:56:53,200
several days that he tries to throw

1174
00:56:57,599 --> 00:56:54,820
himself out of the moving car with the

1175
00:57:00,780 --> 00:56:57,609
psychiatrist who's been sent down to

1176
00:57:02,760 --> 00:57:00,790
accompany him back to Bethesda he's

1177
00:57:05,280 --> 00:57:02,770
tried to do several things to kill

1178
00:57:07,290 --> 00:57:05,290
himself but they head him off and he

1179
00:57:09,630 --> 00:57:07,300
starts to respond to therapy and then we

1180
00:57:11,550 --> 00:57:09,640
see in the hospital records in the news

1181
00:57:13,470 --> 00:57:11,560
items in the quotes from the President

1182
00:57:15,690 --> 00:57:13,480
and other people he's getting better

1183
00:57:18,810 --> 00:57:15,700
he's gaining weight he's taking pride in

1184
00:57:20,849 --> 00:57:18,820
his appearance the fact is all

1185
00:57:25,079 --> 00:57:20,859
documented we know that his brother

1186
00:57:27,750 --> 00:57:25,089
Henry Forrestal arranged for him to

1187
00:57:29,670 --> 00:57:27,760
complete his convalescence at the estate

1188
00:57:33,210 --> 00:57:29,680
of a wealthy friend and that James

1189
00:57:37,410 --> 00:57:33,220
Forrestal was scheduled to be released

1190
00:57:39,089 --> 00:57:37,420
to his brother on Sunday May 22nd if

1191
00:57:43,230 --> 00:57:39,099
we're to believe the official accounts

1192
00:57:48,450 --> 00:57:43,240
early on the morning of Sunday May 22nd

1193
00:57:51,050 --> 00:57:48,460
a attendant who is new who simply is

1194
00:57:54,720 --> 00:57:51,060
there because allegedly the attendant

1195
00:57:56,609 --> 00:57:54,730
navel navel the marine guard who should

1196
00:57:59,220 --> 00:57:56,619
be on that shift for some reason isn't

1197
00:58:00,720 --> 00:57:59,230
there a marine guard who had gotten so

1198
00:58:02,990 --> 00:58:00,730
close to Forrestal that they had

1199
00:58:05,099 --> 00:58:03,000
developed a father-son relationship and

1200
00:58:07,920 --> 00:58:05,109
Forrestal had talked to him about coming

1201
00:58:11,730 --> 00:58:07,930
into his employee after he retired I

1202
00:58:13,829 --> 00:58:11,740
mean you know left and recovered and

1203
00:58:17,190 --> 00:58:13,839
then accidentally leaves his door open

1204
00:58:19,650 --> 00:58:17,200
and Forrestal who has been looking

1205
00:58:21,359 --> 00:58:19,660
forward to release and who is coming

1206
00:58:26,609 --> 00:58:21,369
along fine all the hospital records

1207
00:58:29,940 --> 00:58:26,619
indicate has a sudden relapse a suicidal

1208
00:58:31,800 --> 00:58:29,950
depression walks out of his room walks

1209
00:58:33,480 --> 00:58:31,810
into the efficiency kitchen right across

1210
00:58:36,839 --> 00:58:33,490
the way that does not have a secured

1211
00:58:39,920 --> 00:58:36,849
window decides to take the sash off his

1212
00:58:43,160 --> 00:58:39,930
bathrobe tie it tightly around his

1213
00:58:47,180 --> 00:58:43,170
neck allegedly tie the other part to the

1214
00:58:49,820 --> 00:58:47,190
radiator below the window on the 16th

1215
00:58:53,120 --> 00:58:49,830
floor which was later disproven in the

1216
00:58:54,650 --> 00:58:53,130
Navy investigation but then decides to

1217
00:58:57,650 --> 00:58:54,660
lower himself out the window then

1218
00:58:59,570 --> 00:58:57,660
changes his mind as indicated by the

1219
00:59:02,210 --> 00:58:59,580
horrific evidence of the fingernail

1220
00:59:06,140 --> 00:59:02,220
scratches all along the outer jamb of

1221
00:59:08,270 --> 00:59:06,150
the window loses his grip and dies James

1222
00:59:08,870 --> 00:59:08,280
Forrestal was assisted out of that

1223
00:59:11,450 --> 00:59:08,880
window

1224
00:59:16,130 --> 00:59:11,460
and in it's not out of the question that

1225
00:59:19,820 --> 00:59:16,140
some of the men doing that grim job knew

1226
00:59:22,460 --> 00:59:19,830
him admired and respected him but in mob

1227
00:59:25,700 --> 00:59:22,470
terms it's nothing personal it's just

1228
00:59:27,410 --> 00:59:25,710
business that's the briefest sketch of

1229
00:59:31,400 --> 00:59:27,420
the Forrestal story

1230
00:59:34,520 --> 00:59:31,410
my next involvement with it publicly

1231
00:59:38,360 --> 00:59:34,530
will be for a group called main line

1232
00:59:39,880 --> 00:59:38,370
MUFON a terrific independent UFO group

1233
00:59:42,830 --> 00:59:39,890
our style

1234
00:59:44,690 --> 00:59:42,840
Jennifer Stein one of you follow GC

1235
00:59:47,030 --> 00:59:44,700
cretons and one of my favorite people on

1236
00:59:50,270 --> 00:59:47,040
the planet one of the great contributors

1237
00:59:52,580 --> 00:59:50,280
to esoteric studies and one of the

1238
00:59:55,070 --> 00:59:52,590
nicest and most dedicated people I know

1239
00:59:57,560 --> 00:59:55,080
I'm going to not just be giving an

1240
01:00:01,490 --> 00:59:57,570
updated talk on Forrestal I think it's

1241
01:00:03,470 --> 01:00:01,500
on Wow maybe the 16th or the 17th of

1242
01:00:05,300 --> 01:00:03,480
April I think it said whatever that

1243
01:00:07,760 --> 01:00:05,310
Wednesday is it but if you simply go to

1244
01:00:09,620 --> 01:00:07,770
if you can possibly attend I'd love to

1245
01:00:12,440 --> 01:00:09,630
see you and it's free

1246
01:00:14,990 --> 01:00:12,450
mainline MUFON you'll find their site

1247
01:00:17,600 --> 01:00:15,000
and all information on the talk what

1248
01:00:21,110 --> 01:00:17,610
I've done over the past year or so

1249
01:00:22,580 --> 01:00:21,120
Frank enchant has taken has been to take

1250
01:00:25,250 --> 01:00:22,590
all of the information that I've

1251
01:00:29,920 --> 01:00:25,260
distilled and then I can put usually

1252
01:00:32,870 --> 01:00:29,930
into an hour or so talk or you know a

1253
01:00:37,430 --> 01:00:32,880
5,000 or 10,000 word article or paper

1254
01:00:40,820 --> 01:00:37,440
and turned it into an illustrated

1255
01:00:42,950 --> 01:00:40,830
dramatic reading where I am simply a

1256
01:00:45,050 --> 01:00:42,960
narrator in this case working off a

1257
01:00:46,880 --> 01:00:45,060
teleprompter something that's somewhat

1258
01:00:50,750 --> 01:00:46,890
new to me that I'm very interested in

1259
01:00:53,450 --> 01:00:50,760
trying out with a dedicated assistant

1260
01:00:55,220 --> 01:00:53,460
who is moving those images

1261
01:01:00,020 --> 01:00:55,230
about a hundred and fifty right now as

1262
01:01:02,690 --> 01:01:00,030
we stand behind me helping to tell that

1263
01:01:06,560 --> 01:01:02,700
story and there'll be a break it won't

1264
01:01:08,780 --> 01:01:06,570
be theater but it won't be a UFO lecture

1265
01:01:12,230 --> 01:01:08,790
either it will be something in between

1266
01:01:13,870 --> 01:01:12,240
and I'm hoping that and I've workshop

1267
01:01:18,470 --> 01:01:13,880
that a bit this will be the most

1268
01:01:20,690 --> 01:01:18,480
together performance lack of a better

1269
01:01:23,780 --> 01:01:20,700
word I'll be doing of it and if it works

1270
01:01:27,109 --> 01:01:23,790
it's something that may give me access

1271
01:01:29,570 --> 01:01:27,119
to audiences that I normally wouldn't

1272
01:01:32,599 --> 01:01:29,580
have I should also say that the subject

1273
01:01:34,250 --> 01:01:32,609
of UFOs isn't even mentioned it doesn't

1274
01:01:36,290 --> 01:01:34,260
come up until we're more than

1275
01:01:38,060 --> 01:01:36,300
three-quarters of the way through so

1276
01:01:41,150 --> 01:01:38,070
hopefully by then the audience is fully

1277
01:01:43,370 --> 01:01:41,160
engaged and for many people who are not

1278
01:01:43,820 --> 01:01:43,380
familiar with the world of serious UFO

1279
01:01:46,880 --> 01:01:43,830
studies

1280
01:01:47,510 --> 01:01:46,890
it may be an eye-opener for them we'll

1281
01:01:50,810 --> 01:01:47,520
see how it goes

1282
01:01:52,460 --> 01:01:50,820
Peter two things the market disgrace

1283
01:01:56,270 --> 01:01:52,470
regarding mental illness during that

1284
01:01:58,400 --> 01:01:56,280
period of time which was of course a

1285
01:02:00,500 --> 01:01:58,410
very serious situation for anyone

1286
01:02:04,550 --> 01:02:00,510
dealing with the tragedy of mental

1287
01:02:07,630 --> 01:02:04,560
illness like Forrestal may have been

1288
01:02:10,190 --> 01:02:07,640
probably was towards the end of his life

1289
01:02:12,980 --> 01:02:10,200
aside from his being a workhorse that

1290
01:02:14,870 --> 01:02:12,990
deep thinker philosophical aggressive

1291
01:02:17,620 --> 01:02:14,880
self conscious extremely private

1292
01:02:21,560 --> 01:02:17,630
emotionally fragile his wife and

1293
01:02:23,540 --> 01:02:21,570
Josephine Forrestal is also developed as

1294
01:02:25,099 --> 01:02:23,550
you know so well alcohol and mental

1295
01:02:27,980 --> 01:02:25,109
problems one thing I wanted to mention

1296
01:02:30,710 --> 01:02:27,990
about her is that aside from being a

1297
01:02:33,020 --> 01:02:30,720
fashion editor for Vogue before her

1298
01:02:35,420 --> 01:02:33,030
marriage in World War two she was also

1299
01:02:38,240 --> 01:02:35,430
an unpaid adviser to the waves and

1300
01:02:42,410 --> 01:02:38,250
designed the uniform for the Navy women

1301
01:02:44,720 --> 01:02:42,420
she also christened the aircraft of her

1302
01:02:47,000 --> 01:02:44,730
husband's forestall so it's not a lot of

1303
01:02:50,480 --> 01:02:47,010
people know that she did that she was a

1304
01:02:52,880 --> 01:02:50,490
very accomplished individual she was

1305
01:02:57,200 --> 01:02:52,890
remarkable right yes a remarkable person

1306
01:03:01,450 --> 01:02:57,210
but like you said there was a tragedy of

1307
01:03:05,060 --> 01:03:01,460
having to be dealing with the stigma of

1308
01:03:07,320 --> 01:03:05,070
possibly being found out about having an

1309
01:03:09,870 --> 01:03:07,330
alcohol true alcohol

1310
01:03:12,390 --> 01:03:09,880
oh yeah oh yeah during that period of

1311
01:03:15,440 --> 01:03:12,400
time I'm so glad you brought that up

1312
01:03:18,930 --> 01:03:15,450
chant because she gets short shrift and

1313
01:03:25,380 --> 01:03:18,940
at some points appropriately comes off

1314
01:03:28,590 --> 01:03:25,390
as a bit of a demon in this the fact is

1315
01:03:32,520 --> 01:03:28,600
that from the get-go and anybody I

1316
01:03:34,860 --> 01:03:32,530
should say here that's looking to learn

1317
01:03:37,710 --> 01:03:34,870
more about James Forrestal there's not a

1318
01:03:40,770 --> 01:03:37,720
lot out there but what there is is quite

1319
01:03:43,470 --> 01:03:40,780
fascinating you have you can chase them

1320
01:03:47,190 --> 01:03:43,480
down and use book services the Forrestal

1321
01:03:48,960 --> 01:03:47,200
Diaries which is a tiny tiny excerpt

1322
01:03:51,810 --> 01:03:48,970
about three hundred and fifty odd pages

1323
01:03:53,790 --> 01:03:51,820
of the Forrestal Diaries which run to

1324
01:03:58,470 --> 01:03:53,800
tens of thousands of pages that's

1325
01:04:02,070 --> 01:03:58,480
another story James Forrestal a a

1326
01:04:05,250 --> 01:04:02,080
psychological profile by Professor

1327
01:04:07,260 --> 01:04:05,260
Arnold Rogo professor of history I think

1328
01:04:10,290 --> 01:04:07,270
at university of southern california

1329
01:04:14,360 --> 01:04:10,300
back in the 60s but the book to go for

1330
01:04:17,130 --> 01:04:14,370
if you really want to have an in-depth

1331
01:04:19,650 --> 01:04:17,140
Forrestal experience and it will stand

1332
01:04:21,090 --> 01:04:19,660
as the definitive biography as far as

1333
01:04:25,260 --> 01:04:21,100
I'm concerned it's called James

1334
01:04:30,090 --> 01:04:25,270
Forrestal driven Patriot it was written

1335
01:04:33,060 --> 01:04:30,100
by a man named Townsend hoops wonderful

1336
01:04:39,570 --> 01:04:33,070
wasp name and the well-known historian

1337
01:04:42,990 --> 01:04:39,580
Douglas Brinkley hoops was an apprentice

1338
01:04:45,690 --> 01:04:43,000
working under Forrestal in the later 40s

1339
01:04:48,350 --> 01:04:45,700
in the defense department and through

1340
01:04:50,520 --> 01:04:48,360
one of those crazy life coincidences

1341
01:04:54,480 --> 01:04:50,530
before I made that connection

1342
01:04:58,080 --> 01:04:54,490
I knew mr. hoops he was a member of the

1343
01:05:01,020 --> 01:04:58,090
board of the repertory company that I

1344
01:05:04,230 --> 01:05:01,030
was theater manager for throughout most

1345
01:05:06,690 --> 01:05:04,240
of the 1980s and I saw him regularly

1346
01:05:09,060 --> 01:05:06,700
several times a year both of us making

1347
01:05:12,330 --> 01:05:09,070
cheerful small talk and our tuxedos and

1348
01:05:16,230 --> 01:05:12,340
openings at plays off-broadway and it

1349
01:05:18,000 --> 01:05:16,240
wasn't until after he retired he had

1350
01:05:20,940 --> 01:05:18,010
been I think a deputy assistant

1351
01:05:21,240 --> 01:05:20,950
secretary of Navy ultimately went on to

1352
01:05:25,620 --> 01:05:21,250
teach

1353
01:05:26,280 --> 01:05:25,630
Georgetown and I knew a we had a mutual

1354
01:05:29,700 --> 01:05:26,290
friend

1355
01:05:31,920 --> 01:05:29,710
a lovely Society woman named Sandra

1356
01:05:34,350 --> 01:05:31,930
Wright who was another brilliant

1357
01:05:37,980 --> 01:05:34,360
behind-the-scenes mover and shaker in

1358
01:05:40,340 --> 01:05:37,990
trying to move disclosure long past

1359
01:05:44,850 --> 01:05:40,350
unfortunately if cancer some years ago

1360
01:05:48,030 --> 01:05:44,860
through her I realized that we had this

1361
01:05:49,380 --> 01:05:48,040
connection and that afternoon with me

1362
01:05:53,220 --> 01:05:49,390
right there in her apartment on West

1363
01:05:55,770 --> 01:05:53,230
57th Street she called him and she said

1364
01:05:58,080 --> 01:05:55,780
he and his wife are fascinated by UFOs

1365
01:06:01,350 --> 01:05:58,090
they'd love to discuss this and of

1366
01:06:03,840 --> 01:06:01,360
course nothing comes up in in hoops and

1367
01:06:05,340 --> 01:06:03,850
Brinkley's book about the subject and I

1368
01:06:08,130 --> 01:06:05,350
literally watched her on the phone as

1369
01:06:10,800 --> 01:06:08,140
her face fell speaking to mrs. hoops and

1370
01:06:12,810 --> 01:06:10,810
learning that her husband was in end

1371
01:06:14,490 --> 01:06:12,820
stages of the cancer that killed him so

1372
01:06:18,380 --> 01:06:14,500
I never got to talk to him about that

1373
01:06:22,950 --> 01:06:18,390
but it's a remarkably well done

1374
01:06:24,600 --> 01:06:22,960
biography and it again it doesn't

1375
01:06:26,900 --> 01:06:24,610
discuss the things that we're discussing

1376
01:06:33,260 --> 01:06:26,910
about it but as far as Josephine goes

1377
01:06:39,840 --> 01:06:33,270
the whole time that from March of 49

1378
01:06:42,950 --> 01:06:39,850
through until he died on May 22nd mrs.

1379
01:06:45,420 --> 01:06:42,960
Forrestal was in Paris where she stayed

1380
01:06:50,190 --> 01:06:45,430
she didn't come back when he was

1381
01:06:52,080 --> 01:06:50,200
institutionalized not even for

1382
01:06:54,420 --> 01:06:52,090
appearance sake there was tremendous

1383
01:06:57,210 --> 01:06:54,430
rancor between them as a couple at that

1384
01:06:59,160 --> 01:06:57,220
point which he instigated with his

1385
01:07:02,460 --> 01:06:59,170
philandering from the get-go and then

1386
01:07:05,820 --> 01:07:02,470
she just fell into her own series of you

1387
01:07:10,760 --> 01:07:05,830
know serial affairs she did not return

1388
01:07:14,660 --> 01:07:10,770
until the day after he died and

1389
01:07:19,430 --> 01:07:14,670
literally on the tarmac of the airport

1390
01:07:21,900 --> 01:07:19,440
absolved everybody of any involvement in

1391
01:07:25,380 --> 01:07:21,910
anything relating to his death which is

1392
01:07:30,000 --> 01:07:25,390
not just unusual it's downright weird

1393
01:07:32,880 --> 01:07:30,010
and and and very out of seemingly

1394
01:07:35,460 --> 01:07:32,890
inappropriate but all of a sudden she

1395
01:07:38,550 --> 01:07:35,470
was not the

1396
01:07:42,320 --> 01:07:38,560
the wife of in a very troubled married

1397
01:07:44,670 --> 01:07:42,330
marriage with a a now retired

1398
01:07:48,180 --> 01:07:44,680
hospitalized member of the United States

1399
01:07:51,120 --> 01:07:48,190
government she was the wife she was the

1400
01:07:53,580 --> 01:07:51,130
widow of a genuine American Hero and two

1401
01:07:57,420 --> 01:07:53,590
days later when he was laid to rest at

1402
01:07:59,730 --> 01:07:57,430
Arlington National Cemetery 5,000 people

1403
01:08:02,880 --> 01:07:59,740
were in attendance there was either an

1404
01:08:05,310 --> 01:08:02,890
18 or 21 gun howitzer salud

1405
01:08:07,140 --> 01:08:05,320
President Truman gave the lead eulogy

1406
01:08:09,750 --> 01:08:07,150
and then America pretty much forgot

1407
01:08:12,600 --> 01:08:09,760
about him yes I'd like to bring up to a

1408
01:08:16,680 --> 01:08:12,610
few things Peter when is the Truman's

1409
01:08:18,570 --> 01:08:16,690
wife and also a forrestal's wife the

1410
01:08:22,230 --> 01:08:18,580
thing that they appeared to have in

1411
01:08:24,030 --> 01:08:22,240
common is partway through the marriages

1412
01:08:26,580 --> 01:08:24,040
they appear to be loveless marriages

1413
01:08:31,290 --> 01:08:26,590
Truman's wife was primarily in Missouri

1414
01:08:35,060 --> 01:08:31,300
despite not being in a fantastic

1415
01:08:38,250 --> 01:08:35,070
marriage with Truman and then also Jo

1416
01:08:41,570 --> 01:08:38,260
forestalls wife Justine Forrest off she

1417
01:08:45,000 --> 01:08:41,580
appeared to primarily live in Europe

1418
01:08:48,930 --> 01:08:45,010
Jamaica and Ireland and like you said

1419
01:08:51,870 --> 01:08:48,940
she came back the day after he died so I

1420
01:08:54,270 --> 01:08:51,880
think Truman and forestalls wives both

1421
01:08:56,760 --> 01:08:54,280
shared the same thing in common they had

1422
01:08:59,520 --> 01:08:56,770
loveless marriages they were separately

1423
01:09:03,470 --> 01:08:59,530
- yeah they lived separately in the wick

1424
01:09:07,020 --> 01:09:03,480
I you know legendary men mm-hmm yeah

1425
01:09:10,080 --> 01:09:07,030
yeah you know some people might say gee

1426
01:09:12,810 --> 01:09:10,090
that's the way to go I've got my own

1427
01:09:15,540 --> 01:09:12,820
independence I've got money I'm you know

1428
01:09:17,210 --> 01:09:15,550
live in Paris and Jamaica and you know

1429
01:09:20,310 --> 01:09:17,220
wherever I want to

1430
01:09:22,940 --> 01:09:20,320
they were the epitome of the Roaring

1431
01:09:25,860 --> 01:09:22,950
couple of the Roaring Twenties couple

1432
01:09:29,250 --> 01:09:25,870
after they got married in looking to

1433
01:09:32,010 --> 01:09:29,260
have a home in New York City a special

1434
01:09:34,620 --> 01:09:32,020
home that would be not just a wonderful

1435
01:09:40,730 --> 01:09:34,630
home but a great status symbol they

1436
01:09:43,980 --> 01:09:40,740
found a lot a vacant lot for sale on

1437
01:09:47,640 --> 01:09:43,990
Sutton Place which is one of the most

1438
01:09:48,599 --> 01:09:47,650
exclusive streets in all of Manhattan in

1439
01:09:51,810 --> 01:09:48,609
all of America

1440
01:09:54,060 --> 01:09:51,820
and they built a huge honkin faux

1441
01:09:58,050 --> 01:09:54,070
colonial private house there there's

1442
01:10:01,710 --> 01:09:58,060
nothing like it in New York there it is

1443
01:10:04,200 --> 01:10:01,720
it's still there when they moved he sold

1444
01:10:05,880 --> 01:10:04,210
it to another Sutton Place resident and

1445
01:10:08,820 --> 01:10:05,890
an acquaintance a man named Irving

1446
01:10:11,820 --> 01:10:08,830
Berlin I mean the life that they lived

1447
01:10:15,210 --> 01:10:11,830
was the stuff of fantasies and dreams

1448
01:10:16,770 --> 01:10:15,220
except at its core one thing I wanted

1449
01:10:19,530 --> 01:10:16,780
mention is you said that when she came

1450
01:10:21,600 --> 01:10:19,540
back she seemingly absolved everybody of

1451
01:10:23,940 --> 01:10:21,610
anything that they might have done that

1452
01:10:29,280 --> 01:10:23,950
would have been considered vindictive in

1453
01:10:32,130 --> 01:10:29,290
nature or maybe not very positive may be

1454
01:10:33,870 --> 01:10:32,140
malignant acting towards Forrestal do

1455
01:10:35,970 --> 01:10:33,880
you really think that's out of character

1456
01:10:37,410 --> 01:10:35,980
for her considering that she may have

1457
01:10:43,800 --> 01:10:37,420
been dealing with some serious mental

1458
01:10:45,240 --> 01:10:43,810
issues well considering that and again

1459
01:10:47,520 --> 01:10:45,250
I'm not a mental health professional I

1460
01:10:49,800 --> 01:10:47,530
don't know but there's some evidence to

1461
01:10:52,700 --> 01:10:49,810
suggest that she might have been what

1462
01:10:55,140 --> 01:10:52,710
would have been termed schizophrenic or

1463
01:10:57,720 --> 01:10:55,150
clinically judges schizophrenic at the

1464
01:11:00,570 --> 01:10:57,730
time I don't know she certainly was an

1465
01:11:03,000 --> 01:11:00,580
alcoholic which is a disease and which

1466
01:11:05,780 --> 01:11:03,010
her husband unfortunately I'm sure

1467
01:11:11,780 --> 01:11:05,790
helped to exacerbate with his behavior

1468
01:11:16,970 --> 01:11:11,790
what struck me as extraordinary was

1469
01:11:19,710 --> 01:11:16,980
these these words were said without any

1470
01:11:22,350 --> 01:11:19,720
supporting information the plane landed

1471
01:11:24,840 --> 01:11:22,360
she got out and she said it there had

1472
01:11:28,920 --> 01:11:24,850
been no investigation

1473
01:11:32,640 --> 01:11:28,930
there had been no information we nobody

1474
01:11:35,940 --> 01:11:32,650
knew whether it was true or not there

1475
01:11:39,150 --> 01:11:35,950
was no way to establish it and one can

1476
01:11:44,310 --> 01:11:39,160
argue that some people yes should have

1477
01:11:47,160 --> 01:11:44,320
been held to account but of course

1478
01:11:50,310 --> 01:11:47,170
that's not the way it went as they say

1479
01:11:51,810 --> 01:11:50,320
history is getting by the winners sorry

1480
01:11:54,360 --> 01:11:51,820
to interrupt here but this horse dolls

1481
01:11:57,720 --> 01:11:54,370
brother was highly suspicious right from

1482
01:12:01,289 --> 01:11:57,730
the logo he's he knew he he writes about

1483
01:12:03,599 --> 01:12:01,299
it he never felt otherwise

1484
01:12:06,869 --> 01:12:03,609
except to say that his brother had been

1485
01:12:11,750 --> 01:12:06,879
murdered and in fact in professor logos

1486
01:12:17,099 --> 01:12:11,760
book which is this dry analytical

1487
01:12:19,409 --> 01:12:17,109
critique and examination of the life of

1488
01:12:22,049 --> 01:12:19,419
James Forrestal from a psychological

1489
01:12:24,449 --> 01:12:22,059
perspective it's fascinating he's the

1490
01:12:27,689 --> 01:12:24,459
only person that actually got to

1491
01:12:33,629 --> 01:12:27,699
interview mrs. Forrestal President

1492
01:12:36,659 --> 01:12:33,639
Truman the psychiatrist that that worked

1493
01:12:40,500 --> 01:12:36,669
with him at Bethesda Robert Lovett a

1494
01:12:43,979 --> 01:12:40,510
good friend and confidant banker ever

1495
01:12:46,199 --> 01:12:43,989
stat all those people there is for me I

1496
01:12:48,929 --> 01:12:46,209
mean it literally jumps out and I use it

1497
01:12:52,889 --> 01:12:48,939
in all my talks and lectures and writing

1498
01:12:54,989 --> 01:12:52,899
about it where the professor basically

1499
01:12:59,159 --> 01:12:54,999
departs from his analytics and says

1500
01:13:00,809 --> 01:12:59,169
however you know there is a group of

1501
01:13:02,879 --> 01:13:00,819
people who remain very close to

1502
01:13:05,549 --> 01:13:02,889
Forrestal who are convinced that he was

1503
01:13:07,409 --> 01:13:05,559
murdered and goes on to discuss that by

1504
01:13:10,259 --> 01:13:07,419
people very powerful in the United

1505
01:13:12,599 --> 01:13:10,269
States government that's simply the way

1506
01:13:14,729 --> 01:13:12,609
it was for me that is an ultimate truth

1507
01:13:16,369 --> 01:13:14,739
of the story Peter I wanted to mention

1508
01:13:18,899 --> 01:13:16,379
just I just wanted to mention something

1509
01:13:21,269 --> 01:13:18,909
important Peter mentioned something

1510
01:13:22,849 --> 01:13:21,279
that's I think very important for

1511
01:13:25,559 --> 01:13:22,859
anybody who wants to know more about

1512
01:13:28,019 --> 01:13:25,569
Forrestal and that is reading the

1513
01:13:31,019 --> 01:13:28,029
Forrestal Diaries by James Forrestal yes

1514
01:13:33,629 --> 01:13:31,029
also if anybody wants to just see a

1515
01:13:35,669 --> 01:13:33,639
smattering of that book they can go to

1516
01:13:38,279 --> 01:13:35,679
the CIA archives like I did there's

1517
01:13:42,559 --> 01:13:38,289
about 22 pages on that that they can

1518
01:13:45,779 --> 01:13:42,569
read the other book that Peter mentioned

1519
01:13:47,969 --> 01:13:45,789
is driven Patriot the life and times of

1520
01:13:50,519 --> 01:13:47,979
James Forrestal by Townsend hoops and

1521
01:13:53,250 --> 01:13:50,529
then also wanted to mention something to

1522
01:13:57,569 --> 01:13:53,260
you the acrimonious marriage is that

1523
01:13:59,639 --> 01:13:57,579
Forrestal and Josephine had you know

1524
01:14:01,889 --> 01:13:59,649
maybe she stood to benefit from his

1525
01:14:05,989 --> 01:14:01,899
death in various ways superficially

1526
01:14:09,239 --> 01:14:05,999
materialistic Lee or whatever and more

1527
01:14:11,879 --> 01:14:09,249
whatever that is but who stood to

1528
01:14:14,620 --> 01:14:11,889
benefit from his death the research I

1529
01:14:16,270 --> 01:14:14,630
found out regarding the on

1530
01:14:18,220 --> 01:14:16,280
answer to that question because I'm sure

1531
01:14:21,910 --> 01:14:18,230
there's multiple answers one is the

1532
01:14:24,459 --> 01:14:21,920
Communists is that true and who in your

1533
01:14:26,830 --> 01:14:24,469
opinion who else stood and what else did

1534
01:14:28,709 --> 01:14:26,840
to benefit what institutions etcetera

1535
01:14:30,729 --> 01:14:28,719
stood to benefit from forrestal's death

1536
01:14:35,649 --> 01:14:30,739
great question

1537
01:14:39,879 --> 01:14:35,659
the term Cold War emerged in the summer

1538
01:14:43,030 --> 01:14:39,889
of 1947 in fact most respected American

1539
01:14:45,459 --> 01:14:43,040
historians date the official beginning

1540
01:14:47,470 --> 01:14:45,469
of what we call the Cold War from

1541
01:14:50,830 --> 01:14:47,480
literally that's a moment in time that

1542
01:14:52,330 --> 01:14:50,840
the modern age of UFO UFOs explodes on

1543
01:14:54,780 --> 01:14:52,340
us not that that's anything but a

1544
01:14:58,810 --> 01:14:54,790
profoundly interesting coincidence but

1545
01:15:01,899 --> 01:14:58,820
with that understood James Forrestal was

1546
01:15:05,680 --> 01:15:01,909
one of the original cold warriors he was

1547
01:15:08,620 --> 01:15:05,690
ferociously anti-communist and the

1548
01:15:13,120 --> 01:15:08,630
Communists as a result sahlan is

1549
01:15:15,280 --> 01:15:13,130
primarily he was an enemy of the you

1550
01:15:21,419 --> 01:15:15,290
know the people of the state and an

1551
01:15:25,000 --> 01:15:21,429
ultimate example of capitalist incarnate

1552
01:15:28,209 --> 01:15:25,010
also there are people that say he was

1553
01:15:32,890 --> 01:15:28,219
anti-semitic and that it was early

1554
01:15:34,660 --> 01:15:32,900
elements of pre Israeli but it would

1555
01:15:36,280 --> 01:15:34,670
have been we would have called them

1556
01:15:38,919 --> 01:15:36,290
terrorists as opposed to freedom

1557
01:15:40,209 --> 01:15:38,929
fighters depending on or freedom

1558
01:15:42,629 --> 01:15:40,219
fighters as opposed to terrorists

1559
01:15:46,120 --> 01:15:42,639
depending on your philosophy of politics

1560
01:15:48,550 --> 01:15:46,130
very openly opposed the recognition of

1561
01:15:55,500 --> 01:15:48,560
Israel's hey what do you think I've got

1562
01:15:59,860 --> 01:15:55,510
that he did and I let me go on to just

1563
01:16:03,070 --> 01:15:59,870
nuance that a bit he was had enough

1564
01:16:05,320 --> 01:16:03,080
vision to understand that the partition

1565
01:16:07,390 --> 01:16:05,330
the partitioning of Palestine not to

1566
01:16:10,629 --> 01:16:07,400
mention a good part of the rest of the

1567
01:16:13,140 --> 01:16:10,639
Middle East under the British decisions

1568
01:16:16,930 --> 01:16:13,150
of where to draw the lines in the sand

1569
01:16:19,450 --> 01:16:16,940
was nuts and that it was going to come

1570
01:16:22,570 --> 01:16:19,460
back to bite us in the butt historically

1571
01:16:23,050 --> 01:16:22,580
in the future the Arabs were not going

1572
01:16:25,780 --> 01:16:23,060
to like it

1573
01:16:27,790 --> 01:16:25,790
yeah in the Arab oil basically even back

1574
01:16:30,940 --> 01:16:27,800
then yeah you know as

1575
01:16:32,560 --> 01:16:30,950
a growing up in the reformed Jewish

1576
01:16:35,260 --> 01:16:32,570
tradition being proud of being Jewish

1577
01:16:37,980 --> 01:16:35,270
but not being a religious person I

1578
01:16:42,040 --> 01:16:37,990
looked into this particularly so because

1579
01:16:43,510 --> 01:16:42,050
if he was anti-semitic that wasn't going

1580
01:16:45,310 --> 01:16:43,520
to sink my ship as far as being

1581
01:16:50,110 --> 01:16:45,320
interested in him as a character in

1582
01:16:53,470 --> 01:16:50,120
history or distort my vision what I saw

1583
01:16:56,740 --> 01:16:53,480
was somebody who was you know a ruling

1584
01:16:59,370 --> 01:16:56,750
class wasup kind of guy who I don't know

1585
01:17:02,380 --> 01:16:59,380
there's no record I have seen of him

1586
01:17:04,300 --> 01:17:02,390
calling Jewish people bad names he might

1587
01:17:06,790 --> 01:17:04,310
have you know suffered from a little bit

1588
01:17:09,220 --> 01:17:06,800
of cultural anti-semitism like a lot of

1589
01:17:12,040 --> 01:17:09,230
guys of his class and time but I

1590
01:17:14,310 --> 01:17:12,050
couldn't find any examples what I did

1591
01:17:17,470 --> 01:17:14,320
see though and what you see throughout

1592
01:17:22,240 --> 01:17:17,480
the published version of the Forrestal

1593
01:17:26,140 --> 01:17:22,250
Diaries is a keenly observant player who

1594
01:17:29,680 --> 01:17:26,150
is reflective knowledgeable makes

1595
01:17:35,680 --> 01:17:29,690
judgments which history has proven to be

1596
01:17:38,820 --> 01:17:35,690
accurate a keen chronicler of his times

1597
01:17:43,990 --> 01:17:38,830
and I would say for anybody who's even

1598
01:17:46,090 --> 01:17:44,000
halfway interested in this subject I'm

1599
01:17:48,970 --> 01:17:46,100
gonna go off here for 10 seconds just

1600
01:17:50,530 --> 01:17:48,980
say build your libraries every one of us

1601
01:17:53,380 --> 01:17:50,540
should be building our actual libraries

1602
01:17:55,030 --> 01:17:53,390
forget about the internet I live in a

1603
01:17:57,550 --> 01:17:55,040
world of books here I don't know what

1604
01:18:00,040 --> 01:17:57,560
I'd do without them I am always looking

1605
01:18:02,440 --> 01:18:00,050
to expand parts of my library for basic

1606
01:18:05,470 --> 01:18:02,450
research and just to satisfy my own

1607
01:18:07,960 --> 01:18:05,480
roaming intellectual curiosity but I

1608
01:18:10,570 --> 01:18:07,970
recently checked with a book service

1609
01:18:13,480 --> 01:18:10,580
that I use regularly called a books aid

1610
01:18:17,130 --> 01:18:13,490
like Abe Lincoln books aid books one of

1611
01:18:19,320 --> 01:18:17,140
the best used book men new books to

1612
01:18:22,810 --> 01:18:19,330
Internet

1613
01:18:24,670 --> 01:18:22,820
um bookstores that I'm aware of and you

1614
01:18:28,660 --> 01:18:24,680
can pick up I used while they're all

1615
01:18:31,780 --> 01:18:28,670
used was published in 51 I think copies

1616
01:18:35,620 --> 01:18:31,790
of the Forrestal Diaries can be gotten

1617
01:18:38,620 --> 01:18:35,630
there for as low as 5 or 6 bucks you

1618
01:18:40,840 --> 01:18:38,630
know go nuts and get yourself a copy you

1619
01:18:44,950 --> 01:18:40,850
will be reading the word

1620
01:18:50,260 --> 01:18:44,960
of one of the great minds of the mid

1621
01:18:52,540 --> 01:18:50,270
20th century who again lived a life that

1622
01:18:54,970 --> 01:18:52,550
was like Jay Gatsby z-- and suffered a

1623
01:18:56,830 --> 01:18:54,980
death that was a Greek tragedy but it's

1624
01:19:00,850 --> 01:18:56,840
a wonderful book to have in your library

1625
01:19:04,330 --> 01:19:00,860
and we should also say here that his

1626
01:19:06,430 --> 01:19:04,340
diary was not a traditional diary

1627
01:19:09,190 --> 01:19:06,440
visualizing one of those little books

1628
01:19:12,640 --> 01:19:09,200
that high-school people keep with a

1629
01:19:15,160 --> 01:19:12,650
little lock on it he starting in 1941

1630
01:19:17,680 --> 01:19:15,170
when his workday finished at about 8

1631
01:19:21,100 --> 01:19:17,690
o'clock he would dictate to his

1632
01:19:22,410 --> 01:19:21,110
secretary a naval officer everything

1633
01:19:25,420 --> 01:19:22,420
that had happened during the day

1634
01:19:27,250 --> 01:19:25,430
everyone who he had seen everything that

1635
01:19:28,660 --> 01:19:27,260
had been discussed sometimes working

1636
01:19:31,870 --> 01:19:28,670
till midnight because he didn't have a

1637
01:19:37,660 --> 01:19:31,880
lot to go home to and he did that until

1638
01:19:40,960 --> 01:19:37,670
January of 1949 based on the New York

1639
01:19:44,230 --> 01:19:40,970
Times investigation into this going back

1640
01:19:46,600 --> 01:19:44,240
to the 40s I was able to calculate that

1641
01:19:49,270 --> 01:19:46,610
his diary in quotes which filled an

1642
01:19:53,610 --> 01:19:49,280
entire filing cabinet as was used at

1643
01:19:58,240 --> 01:19:53,620
that time could possibly have been

1644
01:20:01,240 --> 01:19:58,250
60,000 pages and before he left office

1645
01:20:04,150 --> 01:20:01,250
he asked the White House to take

1646
01:20:07,540 --> 01:20:04,160
possession of his diary very unusual

1647
01:20:11,440 --> 01:20:07,550
most of these characters back then in

1648
01:20:13,930 --> 01:20:11,450
positions of power left Washington with

1649
01:20:16,330 --> 01:20:13,940
all their own papers his feeling was

1650
01:20:18,520 --> 01:20:16,340
there's too much material in here that

1651
01:20:20,950 --> 01:20:18,530
is highly classified that I shouldn't

1652
01:20:23,770 --> 01:20:20,960
personally have it and there is an

1653
01:20:25,360 --> 01:20:23,780
account of that filing cabinet being

1654
01:20:28,600 --> 01:20:25,370
removed from his office in the Pentagon

1655
01:20:33,610 --> 01:20:28,610
and brought directly to the White House

1656
01:20:36,490 --> 01:20:33,620
now what was published was like 356

1657
01:20:39,280 --> 01:20:36,500
pages or something what was not

1658
01:20:42,370 --> 01:20:39,290
published it goes beyond the tip of the

1659
01:20:44,050 --> 01:20:42,380
iceberg we can only guess and wonder and

1660
01:20:47,380 --> 01:20:44,060
for those of you that learn more about

1661
01:20:49,660 --> 01:20:47,390
him you only be wondering more about

1662
01:20:52,450 --> 01:20:49,670
what is not what is still considered

1663
01:20:54,580 --> 01:20:52,460
classified now there's one episode that

1664
01:20:56,470 --> 01:20:54,590
came up this is jumping back maybe

1665
01:20:59,050 --> 01:20:56,480
jumped in with us a little bit so the

1666
01:21:00,669 --> 01:20:59,060
the logical flow goes a little bit

1667
01:21:04,390 --> 01:21:00,679
better along the timeline so to speak

1668
01:21:07,209 --> 01:21:04,400
but during the forty election everybody

1669
01:21:09,939 --> 01:21:07,219
expected Truman to lose everybody did

1670
01:21:12,100 --> 01:21:09,949
that was it was a shock frankly when he

1671
01:21:14,729 --> 01:21:12,110
would it began merit that he won on

1672
01:21:17,080 --> 01:21:14,739
election night now during that campaign

1673
01:21:19,149 --> 01:21:17,090
for he was running against the

1674
01:21:20,560 --> 01:21:19,159
Republican nominee Thomas C Dewey was

1675
01:21:23,530 --> 01:21:20,570
the governor of New York at that point

1676
01:21:26,320 --> 01:21:23,540
in time yeah he met with Dewey during

1677
01:21:29,830 --> 01:21:26,330
the campaign and by some accounts I

1678
01:21:31,990 --> 01:21:29,840
don't know that do we ever confirm this

1679
01:21:32,830 --> 01:21:32,000
that he confirmed that they met that and

1680
01:21:34,600 --> 01:21:32,840
it came out

1681
01:21:36,790 --> 01:21:34,610
yeah within the time frame this didn't

1682
01:21:38,589 --> 01:21:36,800
stay secret this was out in the press it

1683
01:21:41,050 --> 01:21:38,599
came out that the Forrestal did in fact

1684
01:21:43,350 --> 01:21:41,060
me with Dewey but by some accounts he

1685
01:21:46,359 --> 01:21:43,360
had actually lobbied to stay on as

1686
01:21:48,160 --> 01:21:46,369
secretary of defense expecting the do we

1687
01:21:50,050 --> 01:21:48,170
would win and have to name a new

1688
01:21:52,030 --> 01:21:50,060
Secretary of Defense what he got sworn

1689
01:21:56,550 --> 01:21:52,040
in right and then he lobbied for that

1690
01:22:01,180 --> 01:21:56,560
job but regardless that did come out and

1691
01:22:03,250 --> 01:22:01,190
may it wouldn't be surprising that drove

1692
01:22:05,950 --> 01:22:03,260
a bit of a wedge into the relationship

1693
01:22:08,020 --> 01:22:05,960
Truman and do you want to go throw that

1694
01:22:11,680 --> 01:22:08,030
a little bit yeah that's a great point

1695
01:22:14,080 --> 01:22:11,690
and thanks for bringing it up my

1696
01:22:18,160 --> 01:22:14,090
understanding from a number of sources

1697
01:22:22,780 --> 01:22:18,170
is that as we all know anybody a student

1698
01:22:24,760 --> 01:22:22,790
of American history as you say in spades

1699
01:22:27,700 --> 01:22:24,770
Truman was not expected to win that

1700
01:22:31,600 --> 01:22:27,710
election and the epitome of that is that

1701
01:22:34,030 --> 01:22:31,610
very famous wonderful photograph taken

1702
01:22:36,939 --> 01:22:34,040
the day after the election where the

1703
01:22:39,459 --> 01:22:36,949
Chicago Tribune so sure that Truman was

1704
01:22:41,890 --> 01:22:39,469
going to lose printed the headlines even

1705
01:22:45,189 --> 01:22:41,900
Dewey wins or Truman defeated in caps

1706
01:22:47,439 --> 01:22:45,199
and it's the picture of an ecstatic if

1707
01:22:50,020 --> 01:22:47,449
exhausted President Truman holding that

1708
01:22:54,129 --> 01:22:50,030
newspaper up over his head with a giant

1709
01:22:57,700 --> 01:22:54,139
smile on his face now in modern politics

1710
01:23:01,180 --> 01:22:57,710
presidential politics as presidential

1711
01:23:03,790 --> 01:23:01,190
elections precede it is de rigueur it is

1712
01:23:07,030 --> 01:23:03,800
absolutely essential it is always the

1713
01:23:08,350 --> 01:23:07,040
case that mmm if it was a duel an

1714
01:23:10,390 --> 01:23:08,360
old-fashioned duel

1715
01:23:14,080 --> 01:23:10,400
the seconds will meet to discuss

1716
01:23:17,020 --> 01:23:14,090
possible terms etc in this case the way

1717
01:23:19,810 --> 01:23:17,030
modern politics works is yes members of

1718
01:23:23,410 --> 01:23:19,820
the president's team and the Challenger

1719
01:23:27,220 --> 01:23:23,420
the candidate running for the other

1720
01:23:32,320 --> 01:23:27,230
party meet and discuss the parameters of

1721
01:23:34,360 --> 01:23:32,330
what will happen if their candidate wins

1722
01:23:37,060 --> 01:23:34,370
or what happens if the president

1723
01:23:39,910 --> 01:23:37,070
continues to hold on to power it's the

1724
01:23:44,229 --> 01:23:39,920
way it was done it was not the way it

1725
01:23:46,000 --> 01:23:44,239
was done back then and again being

1726
01:23:50,410 --> 01:23:46,010
something of a visionary and a practical

1727
01:23:53,890 --> 01:23:50,420
political player Forrestal I think very

1728
01:23:56,860 --> 01:23:53,900
rightly and very logically was concerned

1729
01:24:00,910 --> 01:23:56,870
that if indeed Truman who he was

1730
01:24:03,130 --> 01:24:00,920
dedicated to I mean the man literally as

1731
01:24:05,979 --> 01:24:03,140
dedicated as any public servant has ever

1732
01:24:08,229 --> 01:24:05,989
been to any president his admiration for

1733
01:24:11,200 --> 01:24:08,239
Truman was boundless and they had a

1734
01:24:14,020 --> 01:24:11,210
great working relationship but he was

1735
01:24:16,290 --> 01:24:14,030
concerned for a possible transition of

1736
01:24:20,200 --> 01:24:16,300
power for the country he loved and

1737
01:24:22,720 --> 01:24:20,210
talked to again a good friend colleague

1738
01:24:25,360 --> 01:24:22,730
and to the degree that he allowed

1739
01:24:28,800 --> 01:24:25,370
himself a confidant Robert Lovett

1740
01:24:34,240 --> 01:24:28,810
a future Secretary of Defense about

1741
01:24:38,280 --> 01:24:34,250
shouldn't somebody breach this topic and

1742
01:24:41,260 --> 01:24:38,290
so he did now again there were people

1743
01:24:44,110 --> 01:24:41,270
surrounding Truman very closely who were

1744
01:24:45,790 --> 01:24:44,120
not fans of Forrestal who wished they

1745
01:24:48,370 --> 01:24:45,800
were the ones who had the admiration

1746
01:24:50,919 --> 01:24:48,380
that Forrestal did looking for a way to

1747
01:24:53,620 --> 01:24:50,929
bring him down and brought this to the

1748
01:24:59,350 --> 01:24:53,630
attention of the president in the most

1749
01:25:02,740 --> 01:24:59,360
negative undermining terms Truman sadly

1750
01:25:05,200 --> 01:25:02,750
bought it and you know he was a

1751
01:25:09,390 --> 01:25:05,210
politician interested in keeping in

1752
01:25:13,390 --> 01:25:09,400
office the nuances were lost to him and

1753
01:25:17,919 --> 01:25:13,400
not only did true did Forrestal fall out

1754
01:25:20,140 --> 01:25:17,929
of favor but Truman who I like to think

1755
01:25:21,220 --> 01:25:20,150
higher of could be a vindictive son of a

1756
01:25:22,930 --> 01:25:21,230
gun

1757
01:25:26,110 --> 01:25:22,940
he literally twisted the knife and

1758
01:25:28,689 --> 01:25:26,120
knowing Forrestal was desperate to speak

1759
01:25:31,720 --> 01:25:28,699
with him to meet with him made him wait

1760
01:25:38,169 --> 01:25:31,730
until I believe the very end of November

1761
01:25:41,680 --> 01:25:38,179
when he came down to Truman's retreat in

1762
01:25:43,990 --> 01:25:41,690
Florida where they did little more than

1763
01:25:46,330 --> 01:25:44,000
a photo op of them standing together

1764
01:25:48,280 --> 01:25:46,340
with golf clubs and smiles on their

1765
01:25:51,130 --> 01:25:48,290
faces and then sent him back to

1766
01:25:53,280 --> 01:25:51,140
Washington which had to have been one of

1767
01:25:56,260 --> 01:25:53,290
the most embarrassing humiliating

1768
01:25:59,770 --> 01:25:56,270
heartbreaking and unnerving episodes of

1769
01:26:02,620 --> 01:25:59,780
this poor man's life so long answer to

1770
01:26:05,290 --> 01:26:02,630
your question but a great observation

1771
01:26:07,570 --> 01:26:05,300
and an important detail in how things

1772
01:26:10,120 --> 01:26:07,580
started to go wrong and it's got out it

1773
01:26:12,070 --> 01:26:10,130
got out in the press and in particular a

1774
01:26:18,160 --> 01:26:12,080
gentleman by the name of drew Pearce it

1775
01:26:20,680 --> 01:26:18,170
was a very important columnist that did

1776
01:26:22,330 --> 01:26:20,690
not like ya didn't like Forrestal and I

1777
01:26:26,439 --> 01:26:22,340
think that the feeling is mutual

1778
01:26:30,550 --> 01:26:26,449
ya hated him Forrestal had outed him on

1779
01:26:33,640 --> 01:26:30,560
a point of he had gotten a leak that was

1780
01:26:35,890 --> 01:26:33,650
embarrassing to Truman and outed him to

1781
01:26:38,110 --> 01:26:35,900
Truman and there was a vendetta from

1782
01:26:40,360 --> 01:26:38,120
that point on if there was anything he

1783
01:26:44,020 --> 01:26:40,370
could do to make Forrestal look bad

1784
01:26:45,880 --> 01:26:44,030
he did it and one of my sources in

1785
01:26:49,060 --> 01:26:45,890
putting together the case that I make

1786
01:26:51,669 --> 01:26:49,070
was drew Pearson's published diaries

1787
01:26:56,470 --> 01:26:51,679
that cover that whole period of time and

1788
01:27:00,250 --> 01:26:56,480
we see that in that period leading up to

1789
01:27:02,200 --> 01:27:00,260
the profound nervous breakdown Pearson

1790
01:27:04,479 --> 01:27:02,210
is learning from I think maybe it was

1791
01:27:07,090 --> 01:27:04,489
this Attorney General or assistant

1792
01:27:12,160 --> 01:27:07,100
attorney general one of his guys in

1793
01:27:15,280 --> 01:27:12,170
government that Forrestal seemed to be

1794
01:27:17,260 --> 01:27:15,290
having a nervous breakdown felt that

1795
01:27:20,080 --> 01:27:17,270
everything was kind of crumbling around

1796
01:27:25,900 --> 01:27:20,090
him but would not say what the reason

1797
01:27:28,360 --> 01:27:25,910
was when asked at the same time arthur

1798
01:27:31,360 --> 01:27:28,370
crock who was a Pulitzer Prize winning

1799
01:27:34,840 --> 01:27:31,370
columnist for The Washington Post back

1800
01:27:37,090 --> 01:27:34,850
then he and his wife adored

1801
01:27:39,460 --> 01:27:37,100
James Forrestal and McLaws social

1802
01:27:41,860 --> 01:27:39,470
friends of his and at that same moment

1803
01:27:46,630 --> 01:27:41,870
in time and when I mean same moment in

1804
01:27:48,400 --> 01:27:46,640
time I mean the autumn of 1947 when this

1805
01:27:51,730 --> 01:27:48,410
weight had settled on forestalls

1806
01:27:54,610 --> 01:27:51,740
shoulders and he became the man where

1807
01:27:58,000 --> 01:27:54,620
the buck stops relative to this UFO

1808
01:28:03,070 --> 01:27:58,010
question he writes in his published

1809
01:28:06,010 --> 01:28:03,080
memoirs in that period of time my wife

1810
01:28:08,920 --> 01:28:06,020
began to notice disturbances in his

1811
01:28:11,110 --> 01:28:08,930
behavior that I did not so we have

1812
01:28:12,850 --> 01:28:11,120
observations from one of his worst

1813
01:28:15,670 --> 01:28:12,860
public enemies and one of his closest

1814
01:28:17,620 --> 01:28:15,680
personal friends that support that same

1815
01:28:19,840 --> 01:28:17,630
thing that at that same moment time his

1816
01:28:26,230 --> 01:28:19,850
behavior began to change dramatically

1817
01:28:27,520 --> 01:28:26,240
and little wonder why so I think you

1818
01:28:38,830 --> 01:28:27,530
know you're gonna give away your whole

1819
01:28:42,010 --> 01:28:38,840
presentation about force so let's let's

1820
01:28:45,060 --> 01:28:42,020
go and shift gears a little bit and talk

1821
01:28:49,150 --> 01:28:45,070
about what I think is as far as I know

1822
01:28:51,610 --> 01:28:49,160
your first active involvement in the UFO

1823
01:28:53,560 --> 01:28:51,620
field which would have been working with

1824
01:28:56,230 --> 01:28:53,570
Budd Hopkins so let's talk about that a

1825
01:28:58,690 --> 01:28:56,240
little bit yeah well my first active

1826
01:29:01,890 --> 01:28:58,700
involvement in the UFO field I could

1827
01:29:05,500 --> 01:29:01,900
argue was talking to my sister about her

1828
01:29:13,210 --> 01:29:05,510
experience that conversation predicated

1829
01:29:16,840 --> 01:29:13,220
by after a 14 plus year silence based on

1830
01:29:20,280 --> 01:29:16,850
a total repression of a childhood memory

1831
01:29:23,500 --> 01:29:20,290
I remembered for a number of reasons

1832
01:29:26,310 --> 01:29:23,510
that came together at the same moment

1833
01:29:29,050 --> 01:29:26,320
with a vengeance

1834
01:29:31,210 --> 01:29:29,060
the childhood UFO sighting that I had

1835
01:29:33,700 --> 01:29:31,220
had with my sister when we were kids

1836
01:29:35,740 --> 01:29:33,710
growing up tell the folks about Hell on

1837
01:29:37,870 --> 01:29:35,750
Wheels your sister tell the folks about

1838
01:29:41,650 --> 01:29:37,880
her a little bit she's well she's a

1839
01:29:44,140 --> 01:29:41,660
brand name a bit of a pun on the fact

1840
01:29:47,770 --> 01:29:44,150
that she could be hell on wheels for a

1841
01:29:48,310 --> 01:29:47,780
411 redhead Helen when we were kids is a

1842
01:29:51,129 --> 01:29:48,320
very book

1843
01:29:53,140 --> 01:29:51,139
very scholarly and then came on

1844
01:29:55,379 --> 01:29:53,150
something called the sixties which we

1845
01:29:59,979 --> 01:29:55,389
threw together with the wind in our face

1846
01:30:05,260 --> 01:29:59,989
she emerged as a poet I emerged as an

1847
01:30:08,410 --> 01:30:05,270
artist and when we were kids growing up

1848
01:30:11,560 --> 01:30:08,420
in a really ideal like little village on

1849
01:30:15,240 --> 01:30:11,570
Long Island about 30 miles east of

1850
01:30:18,569 --> 01:30:15,250
Manhattan we had a profoundly

1851
01:30:21,760 --> 01:30:18,579
life-changing UFO sighting it involved

1852
01:30:23,260 --> 01:30:21,770
playing in the front of the house me

1853
01:30:25,240 --> 01:30:23,270
catching something out of my peripheral

1854
01:30:27,459 --> 01:30:25,250
vision in the sky absolutely blue

1855
01:30:29,319 --> 01:30:27,469
without a cloud and all of a sudden

1856
01:30:33,750 --> 01:30:29,329
hanging over the neighbor's house were

1857
01:30:36,760 --> 01:30:33,760
five silvery white disc shaped objects

1858
01:30:38,800 --> 01:30:36,770
with little details around the edge of

1859
01:30:44,080 --> 01:30:38,810
each that when we did discuss this years

1860
01:30:46,270 --> 01:30:44,090
later we could only read like windows on

1861
01:30:49,240 --> 01:30:46,280
a commercial airplane at the appropriate

1862
01:30:52,600 --> 01:30:49,250
appreciable distance we looked and

1863
01:30:55,149 --> 01:30:52,610
looked and looked and looked we had very

1864
01:30:56,979 --> 01:30:55,159
very different reactions to what we were

1865
01:31:01,720 --> 01:30:56,989
seeing we put together many years later

1866
01:31:04,260 --> 01:31:01,730
and more it was the beginning of an

1867
01:31:06,669 --> 01:31:04,270
abduction experience for my sister

1868
01:31:09,550 --> 01:31:06,679
something that we again did not talk

1869
01:31:13,899 --> 01:31:09,560
about for many years mmm

1870
01:31:17,500 --> 01:31:13,909
I was the geekiest little kid imaginable

1871
01:31:21,370 --> 01:31:17,510
I I was about as sophisticated as beaver

1872
01:31:22,419 --> 01:31:21,380
cleaver this was the early 60s I was a

1873
01:31:25,750 --> 01:31:22,429
boy scout

1874
01:31:28,629 --> 01:31:25,760
I collected rocks and bugs and stamps I

1875
01:31:30,879 --> 01:31:28,639
read voraciously all I wanted at that

1876
01:31:34,149 --> 01:31:30,889
point in my life was to be a foot taller

1877
01:31:36,550 --> 01:31:34,159
have better hair not be a geek wear cool

1878
01:31:39,550 --> 01:31:36,560
clothes have a girlfriend nothing that

1879
01:31:42,490 --> 01:31:39,560
any of you can relate to I'm sure where

1880
01:31:45,339 --> 01:31:42,500
my sister was 12 years old and still

1881
01:31:47,859 --> 01:31:45,349
genuinely on the cusp of childhood and

1882
01:31:50,290 --> 01:31:47,869
our reactions to these things were

1883
01:31:52,149 --> 01:31:50,300
diametrically opposite for Helen it was

1884
01:31:55,990 --> 01:31:52,159
the most fascinating wonderous things

1885
01:31:58,540 --> 01:31:56,000
she had ever seen for me I didn't know

1886
01:32:00,339 --> 01:31:58,550
about UFOs it was just simply one of the

1887
01:32:02,089 --> 01:32:00,349
things that didn't interest me except

1888
01:32:04,580 --> 01:32:02,099
for some of the the great

1889
01:32:07,040 --> 01:32:04,590
the movies that I saw growing up on

1890
01:32:10,100 --> 01:32:07,050
Saturday afternoon with my deeky friends

1891
01:32:12,560 --> 01:32:10,110
but I did know that ridicule was

1892
01:32:13,760 --> 01:32:12,570
attached to the subject and I'll speed

1893
01:32:17,120 --> 01:32:13,770
through this because I know you want to

1894
01:32:18,709 --> 01:32:17,130
talk about God and I resolved not to

1895
01:32:21,700 --> 01:32:18,719
talk to anybody about it later that

1896
01:32:24,290 --> 01:32:21,710
afternoon and I'm compressing a lot here

1897
01:32:25,729 --> 01:32:24,300
my sister came up to me and she said do

1898
01:32:28,790 --> 01:32:25,739
you want to talk about this and I said

1899
01:32:30,260 --> 01:32:28,800
no and 14 and a half years later when we

1900
01:32:32,060 --> 01:32:30,270
were finally discussing it one of my

1901
01:32:34,520 --> 01:32:32,070
first questions was how come we never

1902
01:32:37,399 --> 01:32:34,530
talked about this but she said she never

1903
01:32:39,770 --> 01:32:37,409
forgot it and would reflect on it

1904
01:32:41,899 --> 01:32:39,780
regularly and she said very simple

1905
01:32:45,560 --> 01:32:41,909
you're my brother I love you I respect

1906
01:32:47,120 --> 01:32:45,570
you you said no I got it one week led to

1907
01:32:50,390 --> 01:32:47,130
the next month led to the next year and

1908
01:32:51,919 --> 01:32:50,400
here we are when I asked her what she

1909
01:32:55,580 --> 01:32:51,929
thought when she thought about it she

1910
01:32:58,850 --> 01:32:55,590
said well um that I was special and I

1911
01:33:01,189 --> 01:32:58,860
got it anyway I became obsessed with the

1912
01:33:02,600 --> 01:33:01,199
subject what happened to my sister what

1913
01:33:05,330 --> 01:33:02,610
the hell did we see what did it

1914
01:33:07,910 --> 01:33:05,340
represent what did it all mean it threw

1915
01:33:08,569 --> 01:33:07,920
the biggest French into my life that you

1916
01:33:12,169 --> 01:33:08,579
could imagine

1917
01:33:15,050 --> 01:33:12,179
at that time I was one of the most

1918
01:33:16,520 --> 01:33:15,060
fortunate people I knew in that I knew

1919
01:33:19,399 --> 01:33:16,530
what I had wanted to be since I was a

1920
01:33:21,890 --> 01:33:19,409
kid much younger and I was doing it I

1921
01:33:23,569 --> 01:33:21,900
was a graduate of what I considered the

1922
01:33:25,310 --> 01:33:23,579
finest art school in the United States

1923
01:33:28,129 --> 01:33:25,320
the School of Visual Arts where I was

1924
01:33:29,359 --> 01:33:28,139
then on the faculty I was showing my

1925
01:33:32,530 --> 01:33:29,369
work at a couple of galleries

1926
01:33:36,530 --> 01:33:32,540
irregularly in downtown Manhattan I was

1927
01:33:38,629 --> 01:33:36,540
a blue-collar intellectual working as a

1928
01:33:41,120 --> 01:33:38,639
carpenter in the Soho building boom

1929
01:33:43,010 --> 01:33:41,130
turning over lofts into artist's

1930
01:33:47,660 --> 01:33:43,020
residences and galleries and all that

1931
01:33:49,850 --> 01:33:47,670
kind of thing and I knew I mean not well

1932
01:33:53,780 --> 01:33:49,860
I knew Roy Lichtenstein I knew Andy

1933
01:33:55,850 --> 01:33:53,790
Warhol I was part of that scene in my

1934
01:33:57,530 --> 01:33:55,860
mind I was an up-and-coming major player

1935
01:34:02,290 --> 01:33:57,540
whether it would have happened I don't

1936
01:34:07,370 --> 01:34:02,300
know but that afternoon much to my

1937
01:34:10,520 --> 01:34:07,380
frustration anger shock something more

1938
01:34:12,500 --> 01:34:10,530
important came into my life and I

1939
01:34:15,319 --> 01:34:12,510
resented it more than I can say in a

1940
01:34:15,950 --> 01:34:15,329
funny way I still resent it I don't know

1941
01:34:17,450 --> 01:34:15,960
how different

1942
01:34:20,360 --> 01:34:17,460
my life would have been had I just

1943
01:34:24,580 --> 01:34:20,370
continued to be a painter but I will say

1944
01:34:26,930 --> 01:34:24,590
that my art book started to become

1945
01:34:31,040 --> 01:34:26,940
outnumbered by my UFO books as my

1946
01:34:34,630 --> 01:34:31,050
library got built within a year I had

1947
01:34:38,450 --> 01:34:34,640
read an article in a New York City paper

1948
01:34:42,020 --> 01:34:38,460
that was the best thing I had read up

1949
01:34:44,510 --> 01:34:42,030
until that time on a particular UFO

1950
01:34:46,810 --> 01:34:44,520
investigation and it was written by a

1951
01:34:52,040 --> 01:34:46,820
guy named Budd Hopkins little did I know

1952
01:34:55,070 --> 01:34:52,050
that it was his first case and his first

1953
01:34:56,840 --> 01:34:55,080
UFO article but I did know because the

1954
01:34:59,420 --> 01:34:56,850
New York City art world is a fairly

1955
01:35:01,070 --> 01:34:59,430
small incestuous place that there was a

1956
01:35:03,290 --> 01:35:01,080
painter later period abstract

1957
01:35:06,530 --> 01:35:03,300
expressionist whose work I had seen once

1958
01:35:07,760 --> 01:35:06,540
or twice named hot but Hopkins I went to

1959
01:35:09,200 --> 01:35:07,770
the New York City phone book and I

1960
01:35:12,970 --> 01:35:09,210
called called him this is nineteen

1961
01:35:15,380 --> 01:35:12,980
seventy six or seven introduced myself

1962
01:35:16,850 --> 01:35:15,390
told him I had had a sighting as a kid

1963
01:35:19,459 --> 01:35:16,860
that I was a painter like him that I

1964
01:35:21,950 --> 01:35:19,469
taught at SVA that my sister seemed to

1965
01:35:23,630 --> 01:35:21,960
have had an experience and his very

1966
01:35:26,540 --> 01:35:23,640
first question to me was tell me about

1967
01:35:29,000 --> 01:35:26,550
your artwork he did not like my answer

1968
01:35:30,550 --> 01:35:29,010
at all he was coming from a very

1969
01:35:34,910 --> 01:35:30,560
different tradition than I as a

1970
01:35:37,370 --> 01:35:34,920
minimalist conceptualist and at the same

1971
01:35:39,470 --> 01:35:37,380
time he was very interested in what had

1972
01:35:41,270 --> 01:35:39,480
happened to my sister and invited me

1973
01:35:44,450 --> 01:35:41,280
over for coffee and a few days later I

1974
01:35:46,490 --> 01:35:44,460
went and sat we sat at his kitchen table

1975
01:35:49,100 --> 01:35:46,500
and we talked about art life and UFOs

1976
01:35:51,979 --> 01:35:49,110
the title of his wonderful wonderful

1977
01:35:54,290 --> 01:35:51,989
memoir his last book which everybody

1978
01:35:57,890 --> 01:35:54,300
interested in art life and UFOs and but

1979
01:35:59,510 --> 01:35:57,900
often should read I think back now how

1980
01:36:02,150 --> 01:35:59,520
could I have ever imagined that it was

1981
01:36:04,220 --> 01:36:02,160
the first of hundreds and hundreds of

1982
01:36:07,070 --> 01:36:04,230
cups of coffee that I would have at that

1983
01:36:10,459 --> 01:36:07,080
table and many shots of scotch over the

1984
01:36:14,810 --> 01:36:10,469
next 35 years about half of which time I

1985
01:36:17,240 --> 01:36:14,820
worked as Bud's assistant and he was one

1986
01:36:20,660 --> 01:36:17,250
of my favorite people one of my most

1987
01:36:23,900 --> 01:36:20,670
important mentors and I'm always honored

1988
01:36:27,440 --> 01:36:23,910
that I had that opportunity to be that

1989
01:36:29,090 --> 01:36:27,450
close to him Peter you and Budd parallel

1990
01:36:30,350 --> 01:36:29,100
lives in a lot

1991
01:36:34,280 --> 01:36:30,360
I just wanted to give a little bit of

1992
01:36:35,630 --> 01:36:34,290
background about yourself and but you

1993
01:36:37,400 --> 01:36:35,640
were a studio assistant to three

1994
01:36:38,570 --> 01:36:37,410
important artists noted abstract

1995
01:36:40,700 --> 01:36:38,580
expressionist Peter

1996
01:36:44,090 --> 01:36:40,710
Adolph Gottlieb the American primitive

1997
01:36:46,790 --> 01:36:44,100
Peter painter William Sibley and pioneer

1998
01:36:48,200 --> 01:36:46,800
kinetic sculptor Stanley Landsman you

1999
01:36:50,330 --> 01:36:48,210
were also an accomplished photographer

2000
01:36:52,280 --> 01:36:50,340
and experienced New York City walking

2001
01:36:56,720 --> 01:36:52,290
tour guide you've received gold and

2002
01:36:58,280 --> 01:36:56,730
platinum records for the art direction

2003
01:37:02,270 --> 01:36:58,290
of your contributions to the Blue Oyster

2004
01:37:05,930 --> 01:37:02,280
cult's album agents of fortune moving on

2005
01:37:10,130 --> 01:37:05,940
to Budd regarding his being an abstract

2006
01:37:13,100 --> 01:37:10,140
expressionist and noted one not only was

2007
01:37:17,600 --> 01:37:13,110
he well known in that regard but he also

2008
01:37:21,230 --> 01:37:17,610
knew Jackson Pollock Mark Rothko Robert

2009
01:37:23,990 --> 01:37:21,240
Motherwell and wanted to know aside from

2010
01:37:27,290 --> 01:37:24,000
the fact that you both parallel lives so

2011
01:37:30,110 --> 01:37:27,300
closely and a few major records what

2012
01:37:34,070 --> 01:37:30,120
other things did you like about Budd

2013
01:37:36,920 --> 01:37:34,080
besides art the intellectual discussions

2014
01:37:39,350 --> 01:37:36,930
you both probably had I mean also your

2015
01:37:42,350 --> 01:37:39,360
love for us follow gee what other

2016
01:37:44,150 --> 01:37:42,360
interest did you both enjoy talking

2017
01:37:47,330 --> 01:37:44,160
about thank you for asking that question

2018
01:37:49,760 --> 01:37:47,340
because I loved but he was one of my

2019
01:37:51,200 --> 01:37:49,770
dearest friends and we had such a great

2020
01:37:53,810 --> 01:37:51,210
sense of humor and he was such a

2021
01:37:59,120 --> 01:37:53,820
well-rounded guy in so many respects bud

2022
01:38:01,010 --> 01:37:59,130
was it's it's a horrible thing for many

2023
01:38:03,350 --> 01:38:01,020
people to hear said about somebody who

2024
01:38:05,990 --> 01:38:03,360
is heroic because the way that language

2025
01:38:09,910 --> 01:38:06,000
has been confounded in bastardized he

2026
01:38:14,740 --> 01:38:09,920
was a very proud intellectual liberal

2027
01:38:20,960 --> 01:38:18,230
humanistically geared he was a avid

2028
01:38:22,910 --> 01:38:20,970
reader of history he knew more about art

2029
01:38:27,500 --> 01:38:22,920
history than just about anybody that I I

2030
01:38:31,100 --> 01:38:27,510
knew he loved to travel as I did and for

2031
01:38:33,560 --> 01:38:31,110
him like me one of the great perks of

2032
01:38:36,350 --> 01:38:33,570
doing this work was well here I am right

2033
01:38:38,570 --> 01:38:36,360
now speaking to you - getting to meet

2034
01:38:40,430 --> 01:38:38,580
people that and reach out to people that

2035
01:38:41,940 --> 01:38:40,440
you would have never met or made contact

2036
01:38:43,500 --> 01:38:41,950
with otherwise and if

2037
01:38:45,210 --> 01:38:43,510
really lucky getting to visit some

2038
01:38:48,240 --> 01:38:45,220
places that you also would not have

2039
01:38:50,400 --> 01:38:48,250
gotten a chance to visit as a transplant

2040
01:38:52,260 --> 01:38:50,410
to New York City I was born in in the

2041
01:38:56,070 --> 01:38:52,270
city bud was born in Wheeling West

2042
01:38:58,950 --> 01:38:56,080
Virginia and moved there in 1959 after

2043
01:39:01,230 --> 01:38:58,960
he graduated with a BFA from Oberlin

2044
01:39:03,930 --> 01:39:01,240
College and found an expensive loft

2045
01:39:08,280 --> 01:39:03,940
downtown and got cracking as a painter

2046
01:39:12,330 --> 01:39:08,290
he loved New York City its energy its

2047
01:39:13,890 --> 01:39:12,340
history its nooks and crannies I've been

2048
01:39:15,780 --> 01:39:13,900
in love with the history of the city of

2049
01:39:17,360 --> 01:39:15,790
New York since I was five years old and

2050
01:39:19,860 --> 01:39:17,370
my grandfather would walk me around

2051
01:39:21,720 --> 01:39:19,870
pointing out details and telling me what

2052
01:39:25,830 --> 01:39:21,730
it was like when he was a boy

2053
01:39:27,750 --> 01:39:25,840
I still work occasionally as a highly

2054
01:39:30,540 --> 01:39:27,760
specialized New York City walking tour

2055
01:39:32,310 --> 01:39:30,550
guide I do it with friends as a thank

2056
01:39:35,610 --> 01:39:32,320
you when they come to visit New York if

2057
01:39:37,680 --> 01:39:35,620
they've been kind to me I do it as

2058
01:39:39,300 --> 01:39:37,690
partly a business thing too as well

2059
01:39:44,370 --> 01:39:39,310
whether it's for an afternoon or a week

2060
01:39:47,310 --> 01:39:44,380
I am available bud also shared my great

2061
01:39:50,760 --> 01:39:47,320
love of the theater I was lucky enough

2062
01:39:53,070 --> 01:39:50,770
as a boy to be taken to Broadway plays

2063
01:39:56,430 --> 01:39:53,080
by my grandmother and my great aunt

2064
01:39:59,420 --> 01:39:56,440
especially worked in off-broadway

2065
01:40:01,860 --> 01:39:59,430
theater for years in New York with

2066
01:40:04,320 --> 01:40:01,870
actors whose names you don't know but

2067
01:40:06,630 --> 01:40:04,330
dozens and dozens and dozens of the

2068
01:40:09,180 --> 01:40:06,640
great faces from film and theatre and

2069
01:40:12,090 --> 01:40:09,190
television Academy Award winners Tony

2070
01:40:13,950 --> 01:40:12,100
Award winners and every time the company

2071
01:40:16,050 --> 01:40:13,960
that I worked with would put up a new

2072
01:40:19,020 --> 01:40:16,060
play I get a certain number of comps and

2073
01:40:22,350 --> 01:40:19,030
bud would always be on my guest list

2074
01:40:24,900 --> 01:40:22,360
sometimes with his young daughter other

2075
01:40:28,680 --> 01:40:24,910
times with a guest of his one of my

2076
01:40:32,430 --> 01:40:28,690
favorite memories of being at the

2077
01:40:34,560 --> 01:40:32,440
theatre with bud was we were doing a

2078
01:40:38,670 --> 01:40:34,570
place during the great actress Geraldine

2079
01:40:40,980 --> 01:40:38,680
page and Roger Leir was in town Roger

2080
01:40:43,760 --> 01:40:40,990
for anybody who is not familiar with him

2081
01:40:45,810 --> 01:40:43,770
was a podiatric surgeon and another

2082
01:40:48,450 --> 01:40:45,820
terrifically courageous pioneer of

2083
01:40:50,750 --> 01:40:48,460
ufology he dedicated a fair amount of

2084
01:40:52,010 --> 01:40:50,760
his professional life to removing

2085
01:40:56,280 --> 01:40:52,020
implant

2086
01:40:59,450 --> 01:40:56,290
from people who they showed up in scans

2087
01:41:01,740 --> 01:40:59,460
x-rays what have you or they had a

2088
01:41:05,010 --> 01:41:01,750
recovered memory or what have you of the

2089
01:41:08,010 --> 01:41:05,020
thing going in he lived in California

2090
01:41:10,709 --> 01:41:08,020
wrote two very important books about the

2091
01:41:13,740 --> 01:41:10,719
work that he did but anybody that knew

2092
01:41:16,439 --> 01:41:13,750
Roger knew that like Bud he was a

2093
01:41:17,640 --> 01:41:16,449
tremendous extrovert he was an awful lot

2094
01:41:20,910 --> 01:41:17,650
of fun to be with

2095
01:41:24,930 --> 01:41:20,920
he was a great raconteur great joke

2096
01:41:27,300 --> 01:41:24,940
teller and going bringing these two guys

2097
01:41:29,399 --> 01:41:27,310
as my guests to see this major play and

2098
01:41:32,189 --> 01:41:29,409
then going out drinking with them and

2099
01:41:34,500 --> 01:41:32,199
some of our actors after and just that

2100
01:41:36,540 --> 01:41:34,510
joy of bringing people together that

2101
01:41:38,459 --> 01:41:36,550
would never meet in a thousand years and

2102
01:41:42,229 --> 01:41:38,469
for these people you're a UFO

2103
01:41:47,100 --> 01:41:42,239
investigator oh my god tell me more

2104
01:41:50,310 --> 01:41:47,110
he loved art and he had a wonderful

2105
01:41:53,760 --> 01:41:50,320
collection of art like me from the time

2106
01:41:54,629 --> 01:41:53,770
he could afford to buy a piece of some

2107
01:41:57,360 --> 01:41:54,639
substance

2108
01:41:59,070 --> 01:41:57,370
he bought a piece of art rather than you

2109
01:42:01,410 --> 01:41:59,080
know put it in the bank

2110
01:42:03,810 --> 01:42:01,420
I have mixed feelings about that but I'm

2111
01:42:06,180 --> 01:42:03,820
I love my collection and I love visiting

2112
01:42:10,350 --> 01:42:06,190
Budds collection there was a time in the

2113
01:42:12,479 --> 01:42:10,360
early 1960s when the art market was not

2114
01:42:23,070 --> 01:42:12,489
what it is now and you could buy a small

2115
01:42:27,060 --> 01:42:23,080
drawing by Mondrian by Renoir by Gogan a

2116
01:42:30,120 --> 01:42:27,070
little drawing for maybe $1,500 a lot of

2117
01:42:32,160 --> 01:42:30,130
money for most people but kind of a joke

2118
01:42:38,370 --> 01:42:32,170
in the cosmic universe now looking back

2119
01:42:40,500 --> 01:42:38,380
on it and Budd was an idealist he liked

2120
01:42:43,950 --> 01:42:40,510
most artists like myself to a degree he

2121
01:42:45,540 --> 01:42:43,960
was not the most practical person doing

2122
01:42:50,780 --> 01:42:45,550
this work and becoming more and more

2123
01:42:56,220 --> 01:42:53,129
basically he lived hand-to-mouth there

2124
01:42:59,280 --> 01:42:56,230
were times that money came in intruders

2125
01:43:01,649 --> 01:42:59,290
was the best seller internationally was

2126
01:43:04,680 --> 01:43:01,659
made into a terrific miniseries that CBS

2127
01:43:05,430 --> 01:43:04,690
showed but more often than not I was

2128
01:43:07,530 --> 01:43:05,440
sometimes or do

2129
01:43:10,230 --> 01:43:07,540
- soaking stamps off of envelopes from

2130
01:43:11,910 --> 01:43:10,240
people that we get letters from - just

2131
01:43:16,010 --> 01:43:11,920
help keep the office running it was

2132
01:43:18,780 --> 01:43:16,020
scary and infuriating and toward the end

2133
01:43:21,450 --> 01:43:18,790
selling a few of those pieces really

2134
01:43:25,770 --> 01:43:21,460
helped him he was incredible optimist

2135
01:43:30,510 --> 01:43:25,780
but a realist I remember when he first

2136
01:43:32,580 --> 01:43:30,520
got cancer he beat it but you know five

2137
01:43:38,310 --> 01:43:32,590
years clear ten years clear but I could

2138
01:43:39,780 --> 01:43:38,320
take you to the spot on 30th 33rd Street

2139
01:43:41,640 --> 01:43:39,790
and 8th Avenue where we were standing

2140
01:43:44,250 --> 01:43:41,650
waiting for a light to change to walk

2141
01:43:46,770 --> 01:43:44,260
back to the whole life Expo we were both

2142
01:43:50,760 --> 01:43:46,780
speaking after a quick lunch break when

2143
01:43:52,680 --> 01:43:50,770
he told me that it had come back and he

2144
01:43:56,550 --> 01:43:52,690
had cancer which ultimately killed him

2145
01:44:03,540 --> 01:43:56,560
at the age of 80 in august of nineteen

2146
01:44:09,570 --> 01:44:03,550
eleven I'll tell you one other thing bud

2147
01:44:12,030 --> 01:44:09,580
was he was a real warrior for the truth

2148
01:44:18,180 --> 01:44:12,040
and I don't want to over romanticize the

2149
01:44:21,930 --> 01:44:18,190
situation but his writing area was on a

2150
01:44:24,840 --> 01:44:21,940
little balcony in his studio an old

2151
01:44:27,090 --> 01:44:24,850
building from 1870 that is no more it's

2152
01:44:30,150 --> 01:44:27,100
now been replaced by a very fancy little

2153
01:44:32,430 --> 01:44:30,160
apartment but he would sit there and

2154
01:44:34,200 --> 01:44:32,440
pound away at his keyboard with an

2155
01:44:37,440 --> 01:44:34,210
ancient computer that he wrote all his

2156
01:44:40,710 --> 01:44:37,450
stuff on and I had the privilege and

2157
01:44:43,500 --> 01:44:40,720
pleasure of being his first wave proof

2158
01:44:45,030 --> 01:44:43,510
reader as he would finish a page he

2159
01:44:47,910 --> 01:44:45,040
would take it off the printer and drop

2160
01:44:50,100 --> 01:44:47,920
it I worked at a desk directly below him

2161
01:44:52,500 --> 01:44:50,110
and it would come down like a leaf

2162
01:44:54,330 --> 01:44:52,510
falling from a tree either land on my

2163
01:44:57,240 --> 01:44:54,340
desk hit me on the head or land on the

2164
01:45:00,930 --> 01:44:57,250
floor I could count the times on one

2165
01:45:04,470 --> 01:45:00,940
hand that I was able to find a typo an

2166
01:45:08,610 --> 01:45:04,480
error in syntax a misspelling he was the

2167
01:45:12,360 --> 01:45:08,620
greatest first draft writer I ever knew

2168
01:45:15,870 --> 01:45:12,370
and many afternoons I would think to

2169
01:45:17,850 --> 01:45:15,880
myself what a privilege it was with the

2170
01:45:19,290 --> 01:45:17,860
exception of a year or two where we had

2171
01:45:21,600 --> 01:45:19,300
a donation to the intruders

2172
01:45:25,200 --> 01:45:21,610
nation and I was a professional and made

2173
01:45:26,760 --> 01:45:25,210
$8 an hour then $10 an hour then a few

2174
01:45:28,290 --> 01:45:26,770
months later we ran out of money and I

2175
01:45:29,700 --> 01:45:28,300
went back to working for free which is

2176
01:45:32,040 --> 01:45:29,710
what I did basically our whole

2177
01:45:33,300 --> 01:45:32,050
relationship so if anybody wants to

2178
01:45:36,690 --> 01:45:33,310
think I was in it for the money there

2179
01:45:40,020 --> 01:45:36,700
you have it I was and I would think to

2180
01:45:41,580 --> 01:45:40,030
myself maybe if we don't blow ourselves

2181
01:45:43,460 --> 01:45:41,590
to hell there's going to come a time in

2182
01:45:47,910 --> 01:45:43,470
the future we're never gonna see it

2183
01:45:49,440 --> 01:45:47,920
we're students in high school and

2184
01:45:52,200 --> 01:45:49,450
university classes are going to look

2185
01:45:53,550 --> 01:45:52,210
back on the latter part of the 20th

2186
01:45:58,500 --> 01:45:53,560
century the early part of the 21st

2187
01:46:03,720 --> 01:45:58,510
century and say before say instead of ad

2188
01:46:05,790 --> 01:46:03,730
and BC and it's a B D and AD before and

2189
01:46:07,440 --> 01:46:05,800
after disclosure and I don't think it's

2190
01:46:08,790 --> 01:46:07,450
gonna happen with our government

2191
01:46:11,310 --> 01:46:08,800
disclosing it but let's call it

2192
01:46:13,500 --> 01:46:11,320
disclosure anyway however the mass

2193
01:46:19,500 --> 01:46:13,510
public learns about it there was this

2194
01:46:22,020 --> 01:46:19,510
small cadre of individuals who put aside

2195
01:46:25,890 --> 01:46:22,030
the possibility of living what we'll

2196
01:46:29,550 --> 01:46:25,900
call a prosperous potentially unhappy

2197
01:46:32,250 --> 01:46:29,560
untroubled life you know with lots of

2198
01:46:35,700 --> 01:46:32,260
creature comforts and nice friends and

2199
01:46:38,580 --> 01:46:35,710
lots of nice toys and set themselves up

2200
01:46:41,010 --> 01:46:38,590
for a lifetime of ridicule and hard work

2201
01:46:43,590 --> 01:46:41,020
and scholarship and going against the

2202
01:46:46,560 --> 01:46:43,600
currents and being the targets of you

2203
01:46:50,780 --> 01:46:46,570
know popular culture jokes to help us

2204
01:46:53,670 --> 01:46:50,790
understand and build a critical mass of

2205
01:46:57,210 --> 01:46:53,680
the most important thing that was going

2206
01:47:00,330 --> 01:46:57,220
on in the history of humanity to that

2207
01:47:02,640 --> 01:47:00,340
point that has helped us to get to the

2208
01:47:06,330 --> 01:47:02,650
point we are now we all know their names

2209
01:47:09,330 --> 01:47:06,340
now we study them in schools we you know

2210
01:47:11,460 --> 01:47:09,340
all familiar with their literature which

2211
01:47:14,340 --> 01:47:11,470
has always been in reprint for millennia

2212
01:47:17,070 --> 01:47:14,350
now etc and so forth I may just be

2213
01:47:19,830 --> 01:47:17,080
dreaming here but I knew what I was

2214
01:47:23,670 --> 01:47:19,840
doing was important because I knew what

2215
01:47:25,920 --> 01:47:23,680
bud was doing was important and it gave

2216
01:47:30,030 --> 01:47:25,930
my life not that it didn't have meaning

2217
01:47:31,920 --> 01:47:30,040
and not that and it gave my life an

2218
01:47:32,880 --> 01:47:31,930
added meaning that nothing else could

2219
01:47:34,620 --> 01:47:32,890
have

2220
01:47:37,190 --> 01:47:34,630
I am one of those people who is

2221
01:47:40,950 --> 01:47:37,200
fortunate enough to have so many

2222
01:47:43,830 --> 01:47:40,960
interests things that I really enjoy

2223
01:47:45,720 --> 01:47:43,840
that I love that I'm fascinated by that

2224
01:47:48,660 --> 01:47:45,730
if you know some force in the universe

2225
01:47:50,790 --> 01:47:48,670
said you can't do UFO research anymore

2226
01:47:53,280 --> 01:47:50,800
you've got to disassociate yourself with

2227
01:47:54,930 --> 01:47:53,290
it you know you're vanished to the

2228
01:47:57,120 --> 01:47:54,940
universe of everything else

2229
01:47:59,640 --> 01:47:57,130
I hope I'd be able to keep in touch with

2230
01:48:01,830 --> 01:47:59,650
my friends in the work but I've got lots

2231
01:48:05,040 --> 01:48:01,840
of other stuff to do too and I'm glad to

2232
01:48:10,260 --> 01:48:05,050
say this year I'm starting to paint and

2233
01:48:12,510 --> 01:48:10,270
draw again a bit and I'm also in a point

2234
01:48:16,340 --> 01:48:12,520
of very dramatic transition having lost

2235
01:48:19,230 --> 01:48:16,350
my beloved dad in a couple of months ago

2236
01:48:21,900 --> 01:48:19,240
yeah well he lived he's a great guy and

2237
01:48:27,110 --> 01:48:21,910
a great father he's also my roommate for

2238
01:48:29,880 --> 01:48:27,120
many years and the house that we shared

2239
01:48:33,930 --> 01:48:29,890
once the paperwork is complete will be

2240
01:48:36,180 --> 01:48:33,940
my house and that's the biggest material

2241
01:48:39,540 --> 01:48:36,190
change I've ever experienced in my life

2242
01:48:42,330 --> 01:48:39,550
and so that is preoccupying me a bit now

2243
01:48:46,560 --> 01:48:42,340
and will factor into my future obviously

2244
01:48:49,680 --> 01:48:46,570
but Budd Hopkins was one of the greatest

2245
01:48:53,900 --> 01:48:49,690
guys and one of the greatest men I ever

2246
01:48:57,800 --> 01:48:53,910
knew and I cannot recommend his work

2247
01:49:01,530 --> 01:48:57,810
widely enough I will also end by saying

2248
01:49:04,380 --> 01:49:01,540
next month I will be speaker at a new

2249
01:49:08,070 --> 01:49:04,390
conference rooted in an old conference

2250
01:49:11,940 --> 01:49:08,080
that being the old International UFO

2251
01:49:14,580 --> 01:49:11,950
Congress now Abele overseen in the

2252
01:49:17,940 --> 01:49:14,590
Phoenix every year every year by Karen

2253
01:49:23,550 --> 01:49:17,950
Brandt and Alejandro Rojas but the

2254
01:49:27,900 --> 01:49:23,560
original founders Bob Brown his late

2255
01:49:31,320 --> 01:49:27,910
wife and his daughter and a new partner

2256
01:49:34,050 --> 01:49:31,330
have recreated the format of the

2257
01:49:39,120 --> 01:49:34,060
original International UFO conference it

2258
01:49:39,960 --> 01:49:39,130
is called UFO Megacon and it will be one

2259
01:49:42,470 --> 01:49:39,970
week long

2260
01:49:45,100 --> 01:49:42,480
it will feature dozens of presenters and

2261
01:49:47,440 --> 01:49:45,110
many of them chosen because

2262
01:49:50,530 --> 01:49:47,450
they're not well-known or because their

2263
01:49:52,690 --> 01:49:50,540
views are controversial and have not had

2264
01:49:55,900 --> 01:49:52,700
the airing that the organizers would

2265
01:49:58,900 --> 01:49:55,910
like them to have there are some of us

2266
01:50:02,350 --> 01:49:58,910
who are laughingly say someone better

2267
01:50:05,230 --> 01:50:02,360
known and I was invited to speak at this

2268
01:50:07,270 --> 01:50:05,240
conference on one condition which is

2269
01:50:10,210 --> 01:50:07,280
that I should come up with a topic to

2270
01:50:12,460 --> 01:50:10,220
speak about that I not only had never

2271
01:50:15,310 --> 01:50:12,470
spoken about before but I had never ever

2272
01:50:17,650 --> 01:50:15,320
spoken about anything related to before

2273
01:50:21,990 --> 01:50:17,660
I gave that a lot of thought and I

2274
01:50:25,510 --> 01:50:22,000
realized that one of the most delicate

2275
01:50:27,790 --> 01:50:25,520
areas of the work that I did with but

2276
01:50:31,660 --> 01:50:27,800
one of the areas that concerned us most

2277
01:50:35,080 --> 01:50:31,670
as people in Budds case as a parent in

2278
01:50:37,090 --> 01:50:35,090
my case as a person who has taught

2279
01:50:40,540 --> 01:50:37,100
school at every level from first grade

2280
01:50:42,640 --> 01:50:40,550
to postgraduate in the arts and has

2281
01:50:47,260 --> 01:50:42,650
always been very protective of my

2282
01:50:50,940 --> 01:50:47,270
students working with kids who may have

2283
01:50:55,120 --> 01:50:50,950
had abduction experiences the potential

2284
01:50:57,790 --> 01:50:55,130
for being taken down is tremendous

2285
01:51:00,640 --> 01:50:57,800
oh you're a painter and you think people

2286
01:51:02,950 --> 01:51:00,650
are aliens are abducting people and

2287
01:51:05,260 --> 01:51:02,960
you've got some crazy parent who thinks

2288
01:51:07,510 --> 01:51:05,270
that their kid has been taken and you're

2289
01:51:10,210 --> 01:51:07,520
not a mental what are you kidding me and

2290
01:51:12,900 --> 01:51:10,220
I thought the times that I work with

2291
01:51:15,730 --> 01:51:12,910
Budd on cases involving young people

2292
01:51:19,240 --> 01:51:15,740
we've always worked very closely with

2293
01:51:21,400 --> 01:51:19,250
the parents who were usually the ones to

2294
01:51:23,530 --> 01:51:21,410
bring it to our attention unless it was

2295
01:51:25,330 --> 01:51:23,540
a young person themselves who had

2296
01:51:27,300 --> 01:51:25,340
written Budd and then working with the

2297
01:51:29,860 --> 01:51:27,310
parents wherever and whenever possible

2298
01:51:32,200 --> 01:51:29,870
bringing in a mental health professional

2299
01:51:34,930 --> 01:51:32,210
with the approval of parents and we had

2300
01:51:36,400 --> 01:51:34,940
quite a network of them who were not

2301
01:51:38,620 --> 01:51:36,410
interested in being made public because

2302
01:51:40,420 --> 01:51:38,630
in some cases it could cost them their

2303
01:51:42,490 --> 01:51:40,430
license to practice or their reputation

2304
01:51:44,740 --> 01:51:42,500
some of them had had these experiences

2305
01:51:48,760 --> 01:51:44,750
and they confided to us that's why they

2306
01:51:52,750 --> 01:51:48,770
went into the healing arts but Budd

2307
01:51:55,240 --> 01:51:52,760
created a a psychological testing

2308
01:51:58,510 --> 01:51:55,250
apparatus that a number of mental health

2309
01:51:59,440 --> 01:51:58,520
professionals still use I have it the

2310
01:52:01,060 --> 01:51:59,450
flashcards

2311
01:52:03,520 --> 01:52:01,070
the eight priorities I have my notes

2312
01:52:06,490 --> 01:52:03,530
from that period of time and maybe most

2313
01:52:09,910 --> 01:52:06,500
important of the hundreds of talks that

2314
01:52:12,930 --> 01:52:09,920
Budd Hopkins gave over the decades I can

2315
01:52:17,980 --> 01:52:12,940
say I think with confidence he only

2316
01:52:21,040 --> 01:52:17,990
spoke once on children the younger

2317
01:52:23,950 --> 01:52:21,050
youngest abductees and it was about 25

2318
01:52:25,990 --> 01:52:23,960
odd years ago Andals now long defunct

2319
01:52:27,850 --> 01:52:26,000
conference called the Omega conference

2320
01:52:30,760 --> 01:52:27,860
that was held in North Haven Connecticut

2321
01:52:32,440 --> 01:52:30,770
every year for ten years and who at the

2322
01:52:37,030 --> 01:52:32,450
time anybody who was everybody was

2323
01:52:40,150 --> 01:52:37,040
anybody spoke at I remained in contact

2324
01:52:43,930 --> 01:52:40,160
with the people who hold the rights to

2325
01:52:47,560 --> 01:52:43,940
that lecture which was transferred from

2326
01:52:49,480 --> 01:52:47,570
the conference organizer to a multimedia

2327
01:52:52,420 --> 01:52:49,490
company in New York that I worked for

2328
01:52:56,620 --> 01:52:52,430
for some years and I'm now proud to say

2329
01:53:00,430 --> 01:52:56,630
that I actually am the person who holds

2330
01:53:02,020 --> 01:53:00,440
the rights to a talk in this case by

2331
01:53:03,820 --> 01:53:02,030
Budd Hopkins which I will be drawing

2332
01:53:07,420 --> 01:53:03,830
from and putting together the talk I'll

2333
01:53:10,210 --> 01:53:07,430
be doing again that is the UFO Megacon

2334
01:53:12,340 --> 01:53:10,220
in Laughlin Nevada coming up the last

2335
01:53:15,370 --> 01:53:12,350
week in March please check it out online

2336
01:53:17,890 --> 01:53:15,380
and join us if you can Peter do we have

2337
01:53:20,350 --> 01:53:17,900
time for one question I hope so

2338
01:53:22,780 --> 01:53:20,360
okay good I wanted to make a comment a

2339
01:53:25,420 --> 01:53:22,790
correction and a question posed a

2340
01:53:27,460 --> 01:53:25,430
question to the correction is you

2341
01:53:30,910 --> 01:53:27,470
accidentally mentioned that but Hopkins

2342
01:53:33,700 --> 01:53:30,920
died in 1911 I think you meant 2011 the

2343
01:53:37,300 --> 01:53:33,710
comment I wanted to make about Budd

2344
01:53:39,370 --> 01:53:37,310
Hopkins is a quote that asked art calm

2345
01:53:41,770 --> 01:53:39,380
has on Budd Hopkins which is where I'm

2346
01:53:44,530 --> 01:53:41,780
at right now looking at his wonderful

2347
01:53:46,330 --> 01:53:44,540
abstract expressionist art he said my

2348
01:53:48,010 --> 01:53:46,340
paintings and sculptures at first glance

2349
01:53:50,680 --> 01:53:48,020
may appear to be a purely aesthetic

2350
01:53:52,870 --> 01:53:50,690
closer up they are not they hold a

2351
01:53:56,380 --> 01:53:52,880
feeling of tentativeness combined with a

2352
01:53:58,540 --> 01:53:56,390
sense of arrival the the question I had

2353
01:54:01,750 --> 01:53:58,550
for you let me just go and preface it

2354
01:54:04,060 --> 01:54:01,760
with this Budd Hopkins as you know I

2355
01:54:05,860 --> 01:54:04,070
wrote a popular book the intruders which

2356
01:54:07,930 --> 01:54:05,870
was on the New York Times bestseller

2357
01:54:11,560 --> 01:54:07,940
list it was the basis for a television

2358
01:54:12,920 --> 01:54:11,570
show on CBS as you know I wanted to

2359
01:54:16,130 --> 01:54:12,930
parallel it to

2360
01:54:19,130 --> 01:54:16,140
whitley streamers communion book

2361
01:54:22,460 --> 01:54:19,140
what was this socio-psychological impact

2362
01:54:26,680 --> 01:54:22,470
of the intruders book compared to that

2363
01:54:29,360 --> 01:54:26,690
book great question

2364
01:54:31,640 --> 01:54:29,370
anybody that knows anything about the

2365
01:54:34,550 --> 01:54:31,650
backstory of intruders written by the

2366
01:54:39,170 --> 01:54:34,560
well-known writer whitley strieber knows

2367
01:54:42,320 --> 01:54:39,180
that it was the first book written by a

2368
01:54:44,270 --> 01:54:42,330
well-known American writer talking about

2369
01:54:46,340 --> 01:54:44,280
his his family's and his friends

2370
01:54:50,050 --> 01:54:46,350
abduction experiences and it went on to

2371
01:54:52,460 --> 01:54:50,060
become a smash international bestseller

2372
01:54:54,590 --> 01:54:52,470
what I'm about to say I was sworn to

2373
01:54:58,550 --> 01:54:54,600
secrecy on at the time but it's all

2374
01:55:01,430 --> 01:54:58,560
public knowledge now these experiences

2375
01:55:03,250 --> 01:55:01,440
drove Whitley to the point where he was

2376
01:55:06,530 --> 01:55:03,260
bless his heart

2377
01:55:11,420 --> 01:55:06,540
suicidal and he seeked out Budd Hopkins

2378
01:55:15,190 --> 01:55:11,430
discreetly for help bud found him a

2379
01:55:19,880 --> 01:55:15,200
therapist to work with who assisted him

2380
01:55:23,900 --> 01:55:19,890
bud encouraged him to exercise this

2381
01:55:26,090 --> 01:55:23,910
story by writing it out I think in the

2382
01:55:29,540 --> 01:55:26,100
dedication it's to Budd Hopkins who

2383
01:55:35,240 --> 01:55:29,550
saved my life I came into the picture

2384
01:55:37,550 --> 01:55:35,250
very late on when I got a cold call from

2385
01:55:40,790 --> 01:55:37,560
Whitley who I had never met but who knew

2386
01:55:43,660 --> 01:55:40,800
that the person that bud was confiding

2387
01:55:46,250 --> 01:55:43,670
to was his assistant Peter Robbins and

2388
01:55:50,080 --> 01:55:46,260
toward the end he told bud he was

2389
01:55:53,150 --> 01:55:50,090
looking for somebody in the field who

2390
01:55:55,250 --> 01:55:53,160
was familiar with this material open to

2391
01:55:57,920 --> 01:55:55,260
it was a good writer and a good editor

2392
01:55:59,030 --> 01:55:57,930
and most important completely discreet

2393
01:56:01,730 --> 01:55:59,040
and he said Peter

2394
01:56:04,430 --> 01:56:01,740
and he called me and asked me if I would

2395
01:56:04,850 --> 01:56:04,440
read the manuscript I said sure send it

2396
01:56:07,040 --> 01:56:04,860
over

2397
01:56:08,780 --> 01:56:07,050
he said no there's only one copy he will

2398
01:56:10,070 --> 01:56:08,790
come to my home in the morning that

2399
01:56:13,670 --> 01:56:10,080
works for you and you will stay here

2400
01:56:16,040 --> 01:56:13,680
until you finish it and I did spend a

2401
01:56:17,390 --> 01:56:16,050
Saturday about nine or ten hours in a

2402
01:56:22,310 --> 01:56:17,400
guest room in his home in lower

2403
01:56:25,130 --> 01:56:22,320
Manhattan read it I think the book was

2404
01:56:26,250 --> 01:56:25,140
profoundly important and came out the

2405
01:56:28,650 --> 01:56:26,260
two books came out

2406
01:56:30,810 --> 01:56:28,660
within a month or two of each other very

2407
01:56:34,200 --> 01:56:30,820
very close together along with another

2408
01:56:36,900 --> 01:56:34,210
similarly important UFO book

2409
01:56:39,479 --> 01:56:36,910
Timothy goods above top secret the three

2410
01:56:41,720 --> 01:56:39,489
of them were the triumphant of UFO

2411
01:56:46,170 --> 01:56:41,730
publishing at that moment in time in

2412
01:56:50,640 --> 01:56:46,180
1987 not enough can be said about the

2413
01:56:55,920 --> 01:56:50,650
influence that communion had in the

2414
01:57:00,380 --> 01:56:55,930
world at large for good bad or you know

2415
01:57:05,280 --> 01:57:00,390
whatever and much to the absolute

2416
01:57:11,100 --> 01:57:05,290
hysteria of everybody from the creators

2417
01:57:15,150 --> 01:57:11,110
of The Simpsons Ren and Stimpy many

2418
01:57:18,720 --> 01:57:15,160
other very popular animations including

2419
01:57:21,570 --> 01:57:18,730
South Park the term anal probe entered

2420
01:57:24,530 --> 01:57:21,580
the lexicon of the English language but

2421
01:57:28,500 --> 01:57:24,540
much more serious and more important

2422
01:57:31,290 --> 01:57:28,510
Whitley is such a good writer that his

2423
01:57:33,570 --> 01:57:31,300
story resonated with a lot of people who

2424
01:57:37,740 --> 01:57:33,580
wouldn't have otherwise one important

2425
01:57:40,110 --> 01:57:37,750
footnote is that that iconic cover that

2426
01:57:43,290 --> 01:57:40,120
drawing that very arrested and drawing

2427
01:57:47,190 --> 01:57:43,300
of the artists vision of this pointy

2428
01:57:49,460 --> 01:57:47,200
chin little nose alien bud introduced

2429
01:57:53,850 --> 01:57:49,470
him to the illustrator who created that

2430
01:57:57,000 --> 01:57:53,860
very important fact no one in history

2431
01:58:00,630 --> 01:57:57,010
that we are aware of ever reported an

2432
01:58:05,990 --> 01:58:00,640
alien that looked like that and so one

2433
01:58:08,479 --> 01:58:06,000
of the interesting side benefits of that

2434
01:58:11,220 --> 01:58:08,489
illustration on the cover of that book

2435
01:58:14,490 --> 01:58:11,230
was that Whitley who I'm sure will

2436
01:58:16,580 --> 01:58:14,500
confirm this probably got thousands of

2437
01:58:19,080 --> 01:58:16,590
letters from people around the world

2438
01:58:21,450 --> 01:58:19,090
beginning here mr. streamer I saw your

2439
01:58:24,960 --> 01:58:21,460
book in a bookstore and a poster a

2440
01:58:26,610 --> 01:58:24,970
friend's house I picked it up

2441
01:58:30,000 --> 01:58:26,620
immediately I've had such experiences

2442
01:58:32,820 --> 01:58:30,010
but the being that I saw didn't look

2443
01:58:35,959 --> 01:58:32,830
like yours and it was always corrected

2444
01:58:39,660 --> 01:58:35,969
to look like a version of an

2445
01:58:40,020 --> 01:58:39,670
archetypical gray bud got hundreds of

2446
01:58:42,600 --> 01:58:40,030
lead

2447
01:58:44,760 --> 01:58:42,610
to the same effect dear mr. Hopkins I

2448
01:58:46,350 --> 01:58:44,770
read mr. Stryver's book but I have to

2449
01:58:48,720 --> 01:58:46,360
tell you because I know you were you

2450
01:58:50,840 --> 01:58:48,730
know involved with him I know this for a

2451
01:58:53,090 --> 01:58:50,850
fact cuz I read most of those letters

2452
01:58:57,060 --> 01:58:53,100
and it was a very interesting

2453
01:59:00,150 --> 01:58:57,070
confirmation without intending it to be

2454
01:59:03,780 --> 01:59:00,160
of being led away with this illustration

2455
01:59:06,330 --> 01:59:03,790
and then bringing the attention back to

2456
01:59:11,370 --> 01:59:06,340
what you really saw which of course

2457
01:59:13,230 --> 01:59:11,380
lines up with the being that has been

2458
01:59:18,810 --> 01:59:13,240
reported so ubiquitously over the

2459
01:59:20,640 --> 01:59:18,820
decades hmm yeah I actually own that I

2460
01:59:24,330 --> 01:59:20,650
lied I don't know anybody who doesn't

2461
01:59:29,040 --> 01:59:24,340
own communion but I own the Timothy good

2462
01:59:30,360 --> 01:59:29,050
book that you just mentioned Peter we're

2463
01:59:32,490 --> 01:59:30,370
coming up on two hours how much more

2464
01:59:35,270 --> 01:59:32,500
time do you have couple of minutes okay

2465
01:59:37,890 --> 01:59:35,280
okay then you know what

2466
01:59:40,890 --> 01:59:37,900
obviously Rendlesham your involvement at

2467
01:59:42,990 --> 01:59:40,900
all that was on the agenda and your work

2468
01:59:46,410 --> 01:59:43,000
with the Travis Walton movie that was on

2469
01:59:47,850 --> 01:59:46,420
the agenda but you know mine let's let's

2470
01:59:49,320 --> 01:59:47,860
do it this way this is a good excuse to

2471
01:59:51,240 --> 01:59:49,330
have you back because there's so much we

2472
01:59:57,390 --> 01:59:51,250
didn't cover how does that sound to you

2473
02:00:00,240 --> 01:59:57,400
that's great I did have one question for

2474
02:00:02,520 --> 02:00:00,250
you are we allowed to pose a question

2475
02:00:05,850 --> 02:00:02,530
from a listener because I do have one

2476
02:00:08,690 --> 02:00:05,860
who wants to ask Peter a question quite

2477
02:00:15,470 --> 02:00:12,540
sure okay great it's from one of the

2478
02:00:19,230 --> 02:00:15,480
young guns Chris Wolford for a divorce

2479
02:00:22,490 --> 02:00:19,240
he wanted to know please ask Peter about

2480
02:00:26,880 --> 02:00:22,500
the soil samples taken from cable green

2481
02:00:29,850 --> 02:00:26,890
sure Chris is referring to the alleged

2482
02:00:34,530 --> 02:00:29,860
site of the so called third night

2483
02:00:37,530 --> 02:00:34,540
incident in the Rendlesham story the

2484
02:00:41,010 --> 02:00:37,540
Rendlesham forest incident involving the

2485
02:00:43,830 --> 02:00:41,020
now discredited witness Larry Warren who

2486
02:00:49,260 --> 02:00:43,840
was my co-author on the book left that

2487
02:00:52,800 --> 02:00:49,270
he's gay in 1988 when Larry and I first

2488
02:00:53,910 --> 02:00:52,810
returned to the alleged location he

2489
02:00:56,790 --> 02:00:53,920
pointed out

2490
02:00:59,580 --> 02:00:56,800
spot in the field that looked a little

2491
02:01:02,939 --> 02:00:59,590
bit different than other areas and I

2492
02:01:04,410 --> 02:01:02,949
took informal samples from it and from

2493
02:01:07,040 --> 02:01:04,420
the surrounding area

2494
02:01:11,430 --> 02:01:07,050
I returned about a year and a half later

2495
02:01:14,640 --> 02:01:11,440
after having consulted a laboratory and

2496
02:01:18,750 --> 02:01:14,650
had been assigned a scientist to conduct

2497
02:01:21,900 --> 02:01:18,760
tests on the soil and returned to the

2498
02:01:26,010 --> 02:01:21,910
states with X number of pounds of soil

2499
02:01:28,709 --> 02:01:26,020
in appropriately labeled containers they

2500
02:01:32,100 --> 02:01:28,719
were fully analyzed that analysis was

2501
02:01:33,979 --> 02:01:32,110
published to a degree in the updated

2502
02:01:39,180 --> 02:01:33,989
version of left that he escaped from

2503
02:01:42,330 --> 02:01:39,190
2005 and then again in a book called

2504
02:01:45,240 --> 02:01:42,340
halt in Woodbridge that I withdrew from

2505
02:01:48,750 --> 02:01:45,250
publication for two reasons

2506
02:01:52,650 --> 02:01:48,760
after learning and seeing the evidence

2507
02:01:54,780 --> 02:01:52,660
for Larry's outrageous lies and

2508
02:01:59,180 --> 02:01:54,790
exaggerations that peppered our book and

2509
02:02:03,780 --> 02:01:59,190
a lot of sloppy claims by the former

2510
02:02:07,100 --> 02:02:03,790
base deputy commander who Larry had

2511
02:02:09,660 --> 02:02:07,110
demonized so intensively for so long

2512
02:02:13,650 --> 02:02:09,670
there were too many inaccuracies and the

2513
02:02:18,840 --> 02:02:13,660
book was removed from print I think what

2514
02:02:21,290 --> 02:02:18,850
Chris is on about here is the results of

2515
02:02:25,020 --> 02:02:21,300
the soil analysis are quite dramatic and

2516
02:02:27,150 --> 02:02:25,030
for me they established a very real

2517
02:02:30,689 --> 02:02:27,160
possibility of something extraordinary

2518
02:02:34,650 --> 02:02:30,699
happening on the spot giving credence to

2519
02:02:40,770 --> 02:02:34,660
Warren's claims in retrospect number one

2520
02:02:43,050 --> 02:02:40,780
I'll say this to Chris if indeed I my

2521
02:02:46,290 --> 02:02:43,060
deductions were right and this is so

2522
02:02:49,620 --> 02:02:46,300
dramatic that it could only be the

2523
02:02:52,560 --> 02:02:49,630
result of phenomenal forces that were

2524
02:02:55,050 --> 02:02:52,570
truly paranormal in no way does that

2525
02:02:58,380 --> 02:02:55,060
establish that Larry Warren was involved

2526
02:03:01,080 --> 02:02:58,390
it simply establishes that he knew where

2527
02:03:04,050 --> 02:03:01,090
that spot was and one of the most

2528
02:03:07,120 --> 02:03:04,060
compelling mystery witnesses here who

2529
02:03:11,080 --> 02:03:07,130
has now gone on record

2530
02:03:14,859 --> 02:03:11,090
in no uncertain terms that Larry was not

2531
02:03:17,589 --> 02:03:14,869
there or involved on that night and that

2532
02:03:19,990 --> 02:03:17,599
being Adrian missed Inza may have been

2533
02:03:22,540 --> 02:03:20,000
the person to point it out to him to

2534
02:03:24,609 --> 02:03:22,550
digress for a moment Larry for decades

2535
02:03:28,479 --> 02:03:24,619
has gone on about the letter that he

2536
02:03:32,620 --> 02:03:28,489
wrote to his mother I think that the

2537
02:03:35,830 --> 02:03:32,630
events happened the last three days

2538
02:03:39,069 --> 02:03:35,840
around Christmas right after Christmas

2539
02:03:43,149 --> 02:03:39,079
of December 1980 and that letter to his

2540
02:03:46,450 --> 02:03:43,159
mom was written on January 6th for many

2541
02:03:49,060 --> 02:03:46,460
years I took it to be a validation of

2542
02:03:50,200 --> 02:03:49,070
his involvement but Larry was lying to

2543
02:03:53,979 --> 02:03:50,210
me from the get-go

2544
02:03:57,030 --> 02:03:53,989
and in any reading of that letter one

2545
02:04:00,700 --> 02:03:57,040
sees that he refers to what the men saw

2546
02:04:03,069 --> 02:04:00,710
and the event itself but in no way puts

2547
02:04:05,589 --> 02:04:03,079
himself there I mean he's very careful

2548
02:04:08,530 --> 02:04:05,599
in the way that he created the mythology

2549
02:04:10,930 --> 02:04:08,540
around himself also Chris I have it on

2550
02:04:15,930 --> 02:04:10,940
good authority now from several sources

2551
02:04:19,240 --> 02:04:15,940
that aerial photographs show that

2552
02:04:21,939 --> 02:04:19,250
discoloration that shaping in that soil

2553
02:04:25,080 --> 02:04:21,949
in the farmer's field called Capel

2554
02:04:30,069 --> 02:04:25,090
Greene predating the events of December

2555
02:04:34,560 --> 02:04:30,079
1980 by many years in England especially

2556
02:04:40,359 --> 02:04:34,570
in that area it's not uncommon to first

2557
02:04:43,000 --> 02:04:40,369
discover the remains or the imprint the

2558
02:04:49,149 --> 02:04:43,010
footprint of an Iron Age settlement or

2559
02:04:54,129 --> 02:04:49,159
Ford in this manner by aerial vision so

2560
02:04:56,979 --> 02:04:54,139
I don't know for me they carry a lot

2561
02:04:59,979 --> 02:04:56,989
less weight than they did the evidences

2562
02:05:02,560 --> 02:04:59,989
that we put together that resulted in

2563
02:05:06,040 --> 02:05:02,570
that soil analysis in terms of Warren's

2564
02:05:08,470 --> 02:05:06,050
involvement if there was an event in

2565
02:05:10,660 --> 02:05:08,480
that field on the third night and there

2566
02:05:13,240 --> 02:05:10,670
may or may not have been I think a lot

2567
02:05:16,990 --> 02:05:13,250
of the smart money says no and for me

2568
02:05:20,840 --> 02:05:17,000
after fully understanding the sweep and

2569
02:05:23,570 --> 02:05:20,850
the depth of the outrageous

2570
02:05:25,820 --> 02:05:23,580
also it's that I bought into over those

2571
02:05:28,040 --> 02:05:25,830
years yeah let me let me jump in here

2572
02:05:30,560 --> 02:05:28,050
and let's be clear there my

2573
02:05:32,390 --> 02:05:30,570
understanding of the if it is that there

2574
02:05:35,540 --> 02:05:32,400
was no doubt he was stationed at the

2575
02:05:38,420 --> 02:05:35,550
base at the time sure absolutely in the

2576
02:05:40,760 --> 02:05:38,430
Air Force and at least at one point in

2577
02:05:42,290 --> 02:05:40,770
time now I I'm friends with John

2578
02:05:44,840 --> 02:05:42,300
Burroughs I've communicated with him a

2579
02:05:46,910 --> 02:05:44,850
lot very on very early on when we spoke

2580
02:05:48,980 --> 02:05:46,920
about this he had said he wasn't sure if

2581
02:05:51,110 --> 02:05:48,990
Lowery was there at the time but now

2582
02:05:53,270 --> 02:05:51,120
he's of the and now he's of the opinion

2583
02:05:54,860 --> 02:05:53,280
that Larry was on leave because remember

2584
02:05:56,270 --> 02:05:54,870
this is taking place right at Christmas

2585
02:05:58,220 --> 02:05:56,280
time I'm sure a lot of guys weren't

2586
02:06:00,650 --> 02:05:58,230
leave and he was one of them that he was

2587
02:06:02,660 --> 02:06:00,660
not at the base at all at the time so

2588
02:06:05,420 --> 02:06:02,670
that's my understanding at least based

2589
02:06:08,030 --> 02:06:05,430
on what John has told me as to where

2590
02:06:09,350 --> 02:06:08,040
that is and you're roughly on the same

2591
02:06:12,350 --> 02:06:09,360
page with that is that would that be

2592
02:06:14,780 --> 02:06:12,360
about right not only am i but I take I

2593
02:06:18,430 --> 02:06:14,790
take John's word for just about anything

2594
02:06:24,910 --> 02:06:18,440
okay I think he is the most

2595
02:06:28,160 --> 02:06:24,920
distinguished the most well-researched

2596
02:06:30,530 --> 02:06:28,170
the most involved and knowledgeable

2597
02:06:33,470 --> 02:06:30,540
witness that has come forward and I've

2598
02:06:36,470 --> 02:06:33,480
apologized to John and we'll do it again

2599
02:06:39,560 --> 02:06:36,480
here for the years that I saw him as an

2600
02:06:42,050 --> 02:06:39,570
adversary my understanding from Warren

2601
02:06:45,890 --> 02:06:42,060
is that he had been on leave for the

2602
02:06:49,100 --> 02:06:45,900
first two days of this three night event

2603
02:06:50,840 --> 02:06:49,110
and came back and completely on

2604
02:06:52,370 --> 02:06:50,850
knowledgeable nobody said a thing to him

2605
02:06:54,560 --> 02:06:52,380
about it there were no leads nobody was

2606
02:06:56,900 --> 02:06:54,570
talking that he then got caught up in

2607
02:06:59,150 --> 02:06:56,910
the third night's event but I I wouldn't

2608
02:07:01,520 --> 02:06:59,160
you have some doubts as to whether or

2609
02:07:02,660 --> 02:07:01,530
not there was a third night of a vet

2610
02:07:05,510 --> 02:07:02,670
yeah

2611
02:07:08,210 --> 02:07:05,520
well there were there was Colonel halts

2612
02:07:10,160 --> 02:07:08,220
event right on the third night involving

2613
02:07:12,170 --> 02:07:10,170
a number of men all whose names we know

2614
02:07:14,480 --> 02:07:12,180
in that famous recording which is

2615
02:07:16,130 --> 02:07:14,490
absolutely authentic what Warren has

2616
02:07:18,710 --> 02:07:16,140
always maintained was that he was

2617
02:07:20,840 --> 02:07:18,720
involved after the fact with more than

2618
02:07:22,430 --> 02:07:20,850
forty other men if you have a copy of

2619
02:07:25,550 --> 02:07:22,440
left at Eastgate you can read his

2620
02:07:30,230 --> 02:07:25,560
account of it and yet not a single one

2621
02:07:34,130 --> 02:07:30,240
of those men have validated his account

2622
02:07:34,770 --> 02:07:34,140
in the present although his greatest

2623
02:07:38,040 --> 02:07:34,780
asset

2624
02:07:41,029 --> 02:07:38,050
his greatest ally the British ufologist

2625
02:07:43,200 --> 02:07:41,039
Gary Hazeltine who has co-opted

2626
02:07:45,450 --> 02:07:43,210
everything that I've written and said to

2627
02:07:47,790 --> 02:07:45,460
the positive and keeps pushing it

2628
02:07:49,560 --> 02:07:47,800
forward at people he's got one coming

2629
02:07:52,919 --> 02:07:49,570
out about this and we're gonna have gary

2630
02:07:55,140 --> 02:07:52,929
on to discuss it let's yeah I know I

2631
02:08:00,930 --> 02:07:55,150
know you're pressed for time but a

2632
02:08:03,410 --> 02:08:00,940
really quick where let me let me put

2633
02:08:05,609 --> 02:08:03,420
this together in my own head here

2634
02:08:08,430 --> 02:08:05,619
you-you-you're yeah but have you seen

2635
02:08:11,029 --> 02:08:08,440
this movie yet it's not done nobody's

2636
02:08:16,080 --> 02:08:11,039
seen good okay okay it's a documentary

2637
02:08:17,819 --> 02:08:16,090
just to be clear as far as I know there

2638
02:08:19,680 --> 02:08:17,829
are two nights that are definitely yeah

2639
02:08:21,569 --> 02:08:19,690
there's the the Jim and John night and

2640
02:08:26,040 --> 02:08:21,579
then the halt might well there's a third

2641
02:08:29,729 --> 02:08:26,050
night the event that Larry describes as

2642
02:08:33,270 --> 02:08:29,739
separate from Colonel halts event with

2643
02:08:35,640 --> 02:08:33,280
his men in the forest where the unknown

2644
02:08:37,950 --> 02:08:35,650
came over them and shined a light down

2645
02:08:41,220 --> 02:08:37,960
into the area where they were and

2646
02:08:43,080 --> 02:08:41,230
Colonel Hall recorded on his micro

2647
02:08:45,359 --> 02:08:43,090
cassette recorder that's all real

2648
02:08:47,729 --> 02:08:45,369
authentic totally confirmed everybody

2649
02:08:49,950 --> 02:08:47,739
involved real people right right okay

2650
02:08:51,990 --> 02:08:49,960
and I think there is a need for a good

2651
02:08:53,669 --> 02:08:52,000
documentary on this case because even

2652
02:08:56,339 --> 02:08:53,679
after all these years and so many people

2653
02:08:58,350 --> 02:08:56,349
talking about it there's a lot that's

2654
02:09:00,479 --> 02:08:58,360
still a little bit unclear so much

2655
02:09:02,490 --> 02:09:00,489
happen there well at the center of this

2656
02:09:04,950 --> 02:09:02,500
so-called documentary is going to be

2657
02:09:06,720 --> 02:09:04,960
Larry Warren's fake story and Gary

2658
02:09:07,560 --> 02:09:06,730
should be ashamed of himself as far as

2659
02:09:09,540 --> 02:09:07,570
I'm concerned

2660
02:09:11,310 --> 02:09:09,550
okay well we'll talk to him about that

2661
02:09:13,560 --> 02:09:11,320
we'll go through all that we have him so

2662
02:09:15,600 --> 02:09:13,570
I believe next month and you know

2663
02:09:19,229 --> 02:09:15,610
obviously that material is going to get

2664
02:09:21,000 --> 02:09:19,239
out and we'll we'll judge it but I I do

2665
02:09:24,149 --> 02:09:21,010
think that there is a need for a good

2666
02:09:25,890 --> 02:09:24,159
documentary about this case and there's

2667
02:09:27,600 --> 02:09:25,900
no doubt in your mind that this is at an

2668
02:09:30,330 --> 02:09:27,610
all time this is a top case all time

2669
02:09:32,279 --> 02:09:30,340
it's a very important case and people

2670
02:09:36,270 --> 02:09:32,289
should not in any way confuse the fact

2671
02:09:38,700 --> 02:09:36,280
that a former alleged leading witness

2672
02:09:41,430 --> 02:09:38,710
has been discredited with discrediting

2673
02:09:44,430 --> 02:09:41,440
the case and being that you have brought

2674
02:09:48,450 --> 02:09:44,440
this in to the end of the show I need

2675
02:09:52,650 --> 02:09:48,460
for folks to know that in response to

2676
02:09:56,040 --> 02:09:52,660
a email that Gary sent out in December

2677
02:09:58,650 --> 02:09:56,050
to an umber of mutual colleagues in the

2678
02:10:00,780 --> 02:09:58,660
world of UFO studies that was only

2679
02:10:03,090 --> 02:10:00,790
brought to my attention and awareness

2680
02:10:06,810 --> 02:10:03,100
earlier this month that I had to

2681
02:10:09,900 --> 02:10:06,820
officially respond to I hope anybody who

2682
02:10:13,170 --> 02:10:09,910
is interested in a fuller picture of

2683
02:10:16,170 --> 02:10:13,180
love Gary's claims in this email which

2684
02:10:18,780 --> 02:10:16,180
has now been made public will please

2685
02:10:24,060 --> 02:10:18,790
make a point of picking up the link

2686
02:10:28,340 --> 02:10:24,070
which I gave to chant to listen to a

2687
02:10:31,260 --> 02:10:28,350
two-hour radio interview I did last week

2688
02:10:34,470 --> 02:10:31,270
giving information and having

2689
02:10:38,190 --> 02:10:34,480
information supported to way out the

2690
02:10:39,510 --> 02:10:38,200
other side of it okay okay Peter is

2691
02:10:41,760 --> 02:10:39,520
there anything else you'd like to cover

2692
02:10:44,340 --> 02:10:41,770
regarding the topic of ufology just like

2693
02:10:48,870 --> 02:10:44,350
a kind of a statement you might want to

2694
02:10:52,979 --> 02:10:48,880
make about it if you get involved in

2695
02:10:54,750 --> 02:10:52,989
keep your day job yeah we don't make any

2696
02:10:58,860 --> 02:10:54,760
money off of this that's why I didn't

2697
02:11:03,060 --> 02:10:58,870
which was a good decision I will say at

2698
02:11:05,880 --> 02:11:03,070
its best it is engaging work it's

2699
02:11:07,890 --> 02:11:05,890
incredibly important work I like to

2700
02:11:11,130 --> 02:11:07,900
think at our best members of the

2701
02:11:14,270 --> 02:11:11,140
research community are acting as

2702
02:11:17,340 --> 02:11:14,280
educators hopefully less and less

2703
02:11:21,720 --> 02:11:17,350
preaching to the converted more and more

2704
02:11:24,920 --> 02:11:21,730
outreach to folks who want to know more

2705
02:11:29,060 --> 02:11:24,930
about the subject and have serious

2706
02:11:31,170 --> 02:11:29,070
sources that they can go to to confirm

2707
02:11:33,690 --> 02:11:31,180
the reality of it

2708
02:11:37,830 --> 02:11:33,700
and the tremendous implications for

2709
02:11:41,660 --> 02:11:37,840
Humanity at its worst as exemplified

2710
02:11:46,320 --> 02:11:41,670
moments ago it is a very ugly situation

2711
02:11:51,660 --> 02:11:46,330
of people lying and misrepresenting the

2712
02:11:55,800 --> 02:11:51,670
truth for attention for money for

2713
02:12:01,620 --> 02:11:55,810
whatever their human motivations are and

2714
02:12:05,070 --> 02:12:01,630
not a lot of fun but we're not alone

2715
02:12:09,450 --> 02:12:05,080
after more than 40 years in the field I

2716
02:12:13,110 --> 02:12:09,460
can say absolutely that I know for a

2717
02:12:15,150 --> 02:12:13,120
fact how little I actually know there's

2718
02:12:17,160 --> 02:12:15,160
a definition applied to a Zen beginner

2719
02:12:20,160 --> 02:12:17,170
which is knowing that you know nothing

2720
02:12:22,440 --> 02:12:20,170
and having it be all right I know more

2721
02:12:24,960 --> 02:12:22,450
than nothing about this subject in fact

2722
02:12:27,020 --> 02:12:24,970
some people would consider me as

2723
02:12:28,920 --> 02:12:27,030
something of an authority on the subject

2724
02:12:32,100 --> 02:12:28,930
but that's like saying you're an

2725
02:12:34,830 --> 02:12:32,110
authority on the unknown and to a degree

2726
02:12:38,940 --> 02:12:34,840
you know you can play with language but

2727
02:12:41,420 --> 02:12:38,950
I know as well as I can in terms of real

2728
02:12:45,450 --> 02:12:41,430
evidences I no longer have the luxury of

2729
02:12:49,980 --> 02:12:45,460
disbelief especially all the years that

2730
02:12:52,890 --> 02:12:49,990
I work with bud and literally was a fly

2731
02:12:55,770 --> 02:12:52,900
on the wall through the investigation of

2732
02:12:58,410 --> 02:12:55,780
hundreds of cases and having that

2733
02:13:03,210 --> 02:12:58,420
hundreds of people all over the world

2734
02:13:05,640 --> 02:13:03,220
who have had these things happen it

2735
02:13:08,220 --> 02:13:05,650
divides the world into it's a

2736
02:13:10,860 --> 02:13:08,230
schizophrenic place with that small

2737
02:13:12,480 --> 02:13:10,870
group of us to a degree like Kevin

2738
02:13:13,800 --> 02:13:12,490
McCarthy at the end of the invasion of

2739
02:13:15,600 --> 02:13:13,810
the body snatchers standing in the

2740
02:13:17,700 --> 02:13:15,610
middle of the highway screaming they're

2741
02:13:21,570 --> 02:13:17,710
here they're here already you're next

2742
02:13:24,030 --> 02:13:21,580
and people thinking and knowing because

2743
02:13:26,400 --> 02:13:24,040
ridicule has so been pounded into our

2744
02:13:29,220 --> 02:13:26,410
brain for the last 70 odd years relative

2745
02:13:29,610 --> 02:13:29,230
to the subject it can't be therefore it

2746
02:13:31,290 --> 02:13:29,620
isn't

2747
02:13:32,460 --> 02:13:31,300
therefore it's something else and I'm

2748
02:13:36,090 --> 02:13:32,470
going to continue sleeping my

2749
02:13:39,630 --> 02:13:36,100
sleepwalking my way to life relative to

2750
02:13:42,690 --> 02:13:39,640
this subject I hope we have a chance to

2751
02:13:46,020 --> 02:13:42,700
see what the next chapter in this is and

2752
02:13:47,400 --> 02:13:46,030
how things turn out to a degree but more

2753
02:13:49,800 --> 02:13:47,410
than that I don't know what to add

2754
02:13:51,630 --> 02:13:49,810
well Peter thank you for having taking

2755
02:13:54,240 --> 02:13:51,640
the time to be on our show today it's

2756
02:13:56,580 --> 02:13:54,250
been a pleasure and an honor Peter

2757
02:13:58,740 --> 02:13:56,590
Robbins author investigative writer

2758
02:14:00,570 --> 02:13:58,750
specializing the subject of UFOs he's

2759
02:14:02,610 --> 02:14:00,580
had more than 40 years experience as a

2760
02:14:06,180 --> 02:14:02,620
writer researcher investigator lecturer

2761
02:14:09,570 --> 02:14:06,190
and author thank you yep peter was last

2762
02:14:13,290 --> 02:14:09,580
thanks a lot I appreciate it I was glad

2763
02:14:14,030 --> 02:14:13,300
to be on the show thank you thanks a lot

2764
02:14:17,150 --> 02:14:14,040
Peter

2765
02:14:19,520 --> 02:14:17,160
and I'm telling you when we started

2766
02:14:23,030 --> 02:14:19,530
this show I thought we'd be lucky to get

2767
02:14:25,940 --> 02:14:23,040
a half an hour out of here you know but

2768
02:14:27,950 --> 02:14:25,950
it went well and yeah we're up we might

2769
02:14:30,230 --> 02:14:27,960
have set the new record for the longer

2770
02:14:32,380 --> 02:14:30,240
so that we've done sure to appreciate it

2771
02:14:34,580 --> 02:14:32,390
and I'm gonna wrap up the show here and

2772
02:14:37,040 --> 02:14:34,590
thanks for joining in everybody we got

2773
02:14:39,770 --> 02:14:37,050
more great shows coming up as we get

2774
02:14:41,690 --> 02:14:39,780
into March we've got them booked of it

2775
02:14:43,070 --> 02:14:41,700
at the Omni Super Show that's one thing

2776
02:14:44,840 --> 02:14:43,080
that I've been working on a little bit

2777
02:14:48,500 --> 02:14:44,850
talking about UFOs in South America

2778
02:14:52,130 --> 02:14:48,510
can't wait for that and hate to stay on

2779
02:14:54,950 --> 02:14:52,140
it and we will know more about UFOs in a

2780
02:14:57,080 --> 02:14:54,960
month in a year than two years than we

2781
02:14:58,760 --> 02:14:57,090
do today and it's about the best that we